To understand the war in Ukraine, you have understand the events that led up to it. And no preceding event is more important than the toppling of Viktor Yanukovych’s government in February of 2014.
Officially known as the ‘Revolution of Dignity’, it was denounced by Vladimir Putin as an “unconstitutional coup”. And while most Western media stick to the official nomenclature, some prominent voices dissent. John Mearsheimer has referred to “the illegal overthrow of Ukraine’s democratically elected and pro-Russian president”, while George Friedman has described what happened as “the most blatant coup in history”.
A recap of the basic facts is in order.
In November of 2013, Yanukovych’s government suspended plans for signing an Association Agreement with the EU, and decided to renew talks with Russia. This decision sparked protests in Ukraine’s capital city, Kiev. By December, the number of protestors had reached the tens of thousands, and a permanent encampment had been established on Maidan square. Although most of the protesters were ordinary Ukrainians, far-right groups were also present.
Beginning in December, there were violent clashes between protesters and the police. On 23rd January, protestors succeeded in occupying various buildings around Maidan square. The situation came to a head on 18–20th February when protestors were fired upon by snipers, leaving scores dead and hundreds wounded. A dozen police offers were also killed in the clashes. From November 2013 to February 2014, 112 protestors and 18 police officers lost their lives; though most of the killings happened on 20th February.
On 21st February, Yanukovych signed an agreement with the parliamentary opposition calling for reforms and new elections. But the next day, he was impeached by the Ukrainian parliament. This impeachment process was in several respects unconstitutional, and Yanukovych declared he was still “the legitimate head of the Ukrainian state elected in a free vote by Ukrainian citizens”. However, he subsequently fled to Russia and a new government was formed.
The ‘Revolution of Dignity’ led immediately to Russia’s annexation of Crimea, and the outbreak of civil war in Donbas – so its geopolitical importance can hardly be overstated. Yet despite huge international attention, one question remains shrouded in mystery: who ordered snipers to fire at protestors on 18–20th February?
The ‘official’ narrative is that the snipers were from the Berkut – a special police unit loyal to Yanukovych. On the other hand, Russia has long maintained they were deployed by the Ukrainian far-right as part of a false flag operation to bring down Yanukovych’s government.
What is true is that more than eight years after the massacre – which took place amid a giant demonstration at the centre of Ukraine’s capital in front of dozens of television cameras – not a single person has been convicted. The perpetrators of one of the deadliest mass shootings in European history remain at large.
Why don’t we have an answer? Well, perhaps we do.
Away from the limelight, one Canadian academic has been poring over the evidence for the last eight years. And he’s convinced the ‘official’ narrative is wrong. Ivan Katchanovski (a political scientist at the University of Ottawa) believes the Maidan massacre was a false flag operation carried out by the Ukrainian far-right.
Professor Katchanovski cannot be dismissed as some fringe commenter or stooge of the Kremlin. He has published his arguments in scholarly books and journals, and has presented them at academic conferences. His latest article, which can be accessed for free, reviews all the evidence he’s collected to date – including witness testimonies, weapon ballistics and medical forensics. It’s based on hundreds of hours of footage of the Maidan massacre trials, as well as synchronised video segments of the massacre itself.
As Katchanovski explains, the ‘false flag theory’ first gained credence in March of 2014, when a phone call between two European officials was leaked online. During the call, the Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet tells the EU’s Catherine Ashton about a conversation he’d had with someone called Olga:
What was quite disturbing, the same Olga told, all the evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers from both sides among policemen and then people from the streets – that they were the same snipers, killing people from both sides. She also showed me some photos. She said that as medical doctor, she can, you know, say that it is the same handwriting, same type of bullets. And it’s really disturbing that now the new coalition, that they don’t want to investigate what exactly happened. So that there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind snipers it was not Yanukovych but it was somebody from the new coalition.
‘Olga’ was later identified as Olga Bohomolets, a doctor who had treated wounded protestors on Maidan square. When quizzed by the press, she said she had not told Paet that somebody from the new coalition was behind the snipers. Likewise, the Estonian Foreign Ministry said, “We reject the claim that Paet was giving an assessment of the opposition’s involvement in the violence” (though they acknowledged the recording was authentic). It is still unclear why Paet would divulge such shocking revelations if he did not believe they had some basis in fact.
Aside from TV recordings and media reports, much of Katchanovski’s evidence comes from the trials of five Berkut police officers, who were charged with the murder of protestors on 20th February, 2014. Various other state actors, including Yanukovych himself, were also charged, but they were not brought to trial as they had already fled the country. (Recall that none of those put on trial were convicted.)
What, then, is Katchanovski’s evidence?
The majority of wounded protestors who testified at the trail said they were shot by snipers from Maidan-controlled buildings. Remarkably, even many witnesses for the prosecution said this. Their testimony is consistent with video footage of journalists and protestors pointing to snipers in buildings like the Hotel Ukraine, which were under Maidan control at the time.
Police snipers testified that they had been ordered to locate and neutralise snipers firing from Maidan-controlled buildings. And Yanukovych himself, who appeared at the trial via video-link, testified that he had received reports of snipers firing from those buildings.
Several Georgian ex-military personnel who testified at the trail actually confessed they were among the snipers, and had been given orders by specific Maidan leaders to fire upon the protestors. They also testified that they had witnessed other snipers shooting from Maidan-controlled buildings. By contrast, no police officers or other state actors confessed to having fired upon protestors.
In the majority of cases where wounded protestors testified that they had been shot by snipers from police-controlled areas, other evidence contradicted their testimony. For example, synchronized video segments showed the exact times they were hit did not coincide with the exact times police officers were discharging their weapons. Other videos showed that several protesters were killed before police officers had even taken up their positions.
Forensic examinations by government experts revealed that the majority of protestors were shot from the side or back, and from top to bottom, strongly suggesting they had been hit by snipers from Maidan-controlled buildings. Only one protestor had a horizontal entry wound. Experts also determined that several protestors were killed by bullets that did not match those used by the police.
An American architecture company created a 3D model of the killing of three protestors, which was used as evidence that those protestors were in fact killed by the police. (This 3D model was covered in a 2018 New York Times article.) However, the wound locations in the model did not match the wound locations from forensic medical examinations.
Aside from what Katchanovski calls “overwhelming evidence” that protestors were shot from Maidan-controlled buildings, he believes there was a cover-up by the post-Maidan authorities.
On 21st February, the Ukrainian parliament passed an amnesty law granting blanket immunity to Maidan protestors for serious crimes that had taken place during the protests. This law also prohibited investigation of the protestors for such crimes, and ordered that existing evidence be destroyed.
Two of the Berkut police officers who had been charged with murdering protestors were released by trial judges due to lack of evidence, suggesting the charges against them were trumped up. And all remaining defendants were released in a prisoner exchange within several months of the expected verdict.
Public statements made by various Maidan participants concerning the far-right’s involvement in the massacre were never investigated. One politician said she saw Maidan leaders bringing snipers into a building and then saw snipers firing from that building. Several activists said they witnessed snipers being evacuated by Maidan leaders. And another politician said that Maidan leaders had “arranged” the massacre.
There were unexplained reversals of testimony on the part of wounded Maidan protestors. Key pieces of evidence went missing or were destroyed. Several trees with bullet holes in them were cut down; all helmets and shields used by those who were shot disappeared, as did security camera footage from Maidan-controlled buildings.
Finally, two far-right politicians stated in separate interviews that a Western government official told them killings of a few protestors would not be enough for Western governments to stop recognising Yanukovych, and for that to happen the number of victims would need to be 100. The protesters who lost their lives subsequently became known as the “Heavenly Hundred”, even though some of those ‘hundred’ were not killed in the massacre itself (and in fact simply died of illness.)
On the basis of all the evidence he’s gathered, Katchanovski concludes that the Maidan massacre was “a false flag operation” which involved “elements of the Maidan leadership”.
If true, the implications are immense. It would mean the event that marked the turning point of Euromaidan – that set in motion Yanukovych’s removal from power – was in fact orchestrated by his political opponents. And aside from implicating those individuals in a brutal act of mass murder, it would remove any doubt that the that the ‘Revolution of Dignity’ was illegitimate.
Is it true?
I have been unable to track down any serious criticism of Katchanovski’s work, and when I reached out to him, he told me “there is no other scholarly study” that disputes his findings. What’s more, the political scientist Gordon Hahn reached similar conclusions in his book Ukraine Over the Edge: Russia, the West and the “New Cold War”.
So why haven’t Western governments shown more interest in investigating the massacre? I put this question to Katchanovski. He said that such an investigation would be “politically inconvenient” because it would “upend the narrative that the Western backed overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 by the pro-Western Maidan opposition was peaceful and democratic”. He added that a definitive answer could be obtained by consulting relevant documents once they are declassified.
As I mentioned above, Katchanovski has published his arguments concerning the ‘false flag theory’ in scholarly books and journals, and has presented them at academic conferences. All the germane papers are available for free online. You might therefore expect for his work to have received significant media attention – particularly in the last few months.
Yet with the exception of a few ‘non-mainstream’ outlets, it hasn’t. Major Western media have ignored his studies “for political reasons”, he told me. This is despite the fact that Katchanovski’s other work on Ukraine (unrelated to the massacre) has received ample media attention, including from the Associated Press, Reuters and the Washington Post.
Katchanovski knows that certain media outlets are aware of his work because he’s brought it to their attention. Following the New York Times article on the 3D model of killings at Maidan, he sent a letter to the editor pointing out they had “misrepresented the wound locations”. But his letter wasn’t published. In another case, “Open Democracy accepted a popular version of my Maidan massacre study, but then did not publish it.” Katchanovski said he gave “long interviews concerning the Maidan massacre to several major TV and Radio networks” but “none of them were broadcast”. In every single case “there was no reason given”.
The only time Katchanovski’s work on the massacre has been put under the spotlight was in Oliver Stone’s 2019 documentary Revealing Ukraine. This film is available on Rumble, and the relevant segment begins at 20:00.
What about everything that’s happened since? In our email exchange, Katchanovski clarified that the Maidan massacre “does not justify the Russian invasion and other actions in Ukraine”. Equally, however, Russia’s invasion does not justify ignoring – in his words – “overwhelming and undeniable evidence” of Maidan snipers.
If others believe that Katchanovski is mistaken, they must come forward and present their arguments. In the meantime, I would strongly recommend reading his papers: they make a compelling case that what’s been labelled a “conspiracy theory” is, in fact, true.
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Some people are never satisfied, they won Eurovision for gawds sake
As if the Ukraine hadn’t already suffered enough….
Bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces. You can find more if you google words: ” Ivan Katchanovski falsifier “
Bot alert
https://twitter.com/i_katchanovski/status/1487994334804946945
It does not negate the fact that bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces.
It does not negate the fact that bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces.
There are many available sources that prove this information.
bullets were removed from the bodies
Ivan Katchanovski is a falsifier of the Maidan massacre and contemporary history of Ukraine (ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com)
………Bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shot from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces. There are many available internet sources that prove this information. You can find more if you google words: ” Ivan Katchanovski falsifier “.
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/2019/03/twelve-automatic-rifles-of-berkut.html
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/
And that group just sold their trophy for nearly an million dollars, I hear. Much of the military hardware being sent is also being sold off.. this should tell people something about Ukraine. Unfortunately one has to be a Russian speaker to uncover much of the information out there, although things do slowly filter through, as with Covid.
Did you see what the money is going towards? It’s going towards supplies for troops, not into their pockets.
Most of the hardware is being used, blown up and left. Your lie is easily disproved. I have no issue with remaining credulous towards any account, but the Eurovision trophy sell has been widely followed and there are too many dead Ukrainian soldiers near or in military hardware given to Ukraine to in any way say reselling them (most of what has been given is too old to have resell value) is happening at any noticeable rate.
“It’s going towards supplies for troops, not into their pockets.”
Perhaps some of it is.
“Most of the hardware is being used, blown up and left. Your lie is easily disproved. I have no issue with remaining credulous towards any account, but the Eurovision trophy sell has been widely followed and there are too many dead Ukrainian soldiers near or in military hardware given to Ukraine to in any way say reselling them (most of what has been given is too old to have resell value) is happening at any noticeable rate.”
How can you possibly “know” what you claim here? There simply are no reliable figures for the numbers of pieces of supplied equipment arriving at the front, destroyed, diverted etc. The bigger pieces are hard to sell, but the smaller pieces are in such colossal numbers that nobody would ever notice a few hundred or a few thousand in some cases being diverted to grease the wheels of Ukrainian corruption.
Actual numbers are simply not available. We know “some” gets there because we see it in use and being destroyed or captured and passed to the Donbass militias for their use. But as far as numbers or proportions go, the reality is nobody knows – least of all the Ukrainian regime, which is thoroughly corrupt. It was famously corrupt even before the Russians intervened in the ongoing civil war. Once this stuff arrives in the Ukraine, it’s in the realm of chaos.
More significant, what we do know with reasonable certainty is that such supplies can do nothing but prolong and deepen the misery the Ukraine faces as a result of its collective choices, driven by US sphere interference.
Cos Putin Hitler 2.0 and blue n yellow double plus good, innit?
Might I add that DoctorCOxford is a hilarious handle. Sounds like a medic who has made up reasons for sh*t all his life, and relied on their not being looked at too closely.
Did he hide under the desk during Covid?
It’s good that the BBC disinformation team have the time to post here but come on
How do you know where the money is going?
They know everything, David. They rush here eagerly the moment a Ukraine story appears, to correct the naughty ones who haven’t learnt their catechism:
Who is to blame for earthly evils?
Putin!
Which nation is his instrument?
Russia!
What is his chief end?
To conquer the world and end all our joy and freedom!
We are the deluded ones who have named and identified all manner of earthly evils, and have a good idea of the collectivity of individuals who are responsible for them and for the assaults on our joys and freedoms.
How naïve can you be?
As “Naive as a Doctor in Oxford” ?
Something’s seriously wrong with your logic.
‘ It’s going towards supplies for troops, not into their pockets…’
Brought from whom, at what price and commission?
‘Most of the hardware is being used, blown up and left.’
Now that’s odd because the CIA has admitted they have no way of knowing where the arms they are shipping are actually going.
Nor do they care.
And an enormous amount of those supplies are for sale on the black market, particularly in Croatia. Effectively we are providing high-tech weaponry for the highest bidder, be that organised crime or terrorists. It’s a fiasco that makes the surrender of Afghanistan look like Sun Tzu.
All those headlines from the last 10 years about Ukraine being the most corrupt country in Europe – yeah, there was a reason for that; and the current fantasy of plucky, inclusive Ukrainians fighting for European ideals and rule of law is just that: a fantasy. It’s a kleptocracy.
Not ahead of Russia, no way. Ukraine under Russian proxy rule was bottomlessly corrupt, funded by Russian oil and gas.
A weapons ready drone platform costs tens of millions of dollars. Reaper drone ~$35m before training costs and resupply of specialised armament.
There are drones and drones.
You mean that you get stuff from Russian propaganda..
But where are Femen, also known as (oligarch Vadim) “Rabinovich’s t*ts”?
Y’know, those blue-and-yellow liveried women who used to do things like chainsaw down Christian crosses commemorating those who died in the Ukraine during WW2 and who held signs saying “Muslim women, get naked”. (What an interesting choice of religions for Rabinovich’s employees to insult.)
…. Bullets were removed from the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shot from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces. There are many available internet sources that provide this information. You can find more if you google words: ” Ivan Katchanovski falsifier “.
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/2019/03/twelve-automatic-rifles-of-berkut.html
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/
If there is ever a complex story like this I always go to a reliable source like the BBC. I can rely on whatever they say and assume the opposite to be true.
You are spot on there. On the rare occasions they put the ‘Russian side’ of things, they call the interviewee a liar to his face, even if he sticks to the facts. What’s the point of the interview if they refuse to enter a proper discussion? We know the answer, of course.
Sceptics back Russia it seems.
Sceptics are sceptical of all propaganda. The clue is in the word.
Non-sceptics believe every propaganda lie they are told.
It saves them the time and trouble of seeking the truth.
Yes! It is a sure e winner!
Same applies to Johnson and his Gang!
Ukraine war: President Zelensky visits Kharkiv in first trip outside Kyiv region – BBC News
Ukraine’s President Zelensky makes rare visit to Kharkiv frontline – BBC News
‘First trip outside’ ‘rare visit’
Change in the mood music?
Getting ready to dump Zelensky to avoid winter blackouts?
Um, you do understand that there is mass shelling in the nation, that using scare petrol or rail resources so he can go visit other areas is wasteful, and that he has been all over Kyiv Oblast, which is huge. Did we expect Thatcher to be showing up on troop ships in the S Atlantic in 82?
They are not my words but the BBC’s and therefore the British Governments
Just asking if the words used suggest a change in mood
Why no ‘Courageous Zelensky braves shells and fuel shortages to travel to front line to support troops’
Just saying
“In the nation” – read in areas of combat. It is a large ‘nation’.
Where?
Russia has withdrawn to east Ukraine.
Hopefully a “reculer pour mieux sauter” feint!
Excellent work.
For me, it’s just another horrible crime, so I’m not really particularly interested in the event itself, though clearly its exploitation was very significant. The event of real importance, that this crime set the scene for, was the subsequent coup, that ended any possibility of the Ukraine travelling a peaceful road.
For me, the real issue for us in the UK is the interference by US and US sphere regimes that pushed the Ukraine in the disastrous direction it travelled in the post-Soviet years. That interference, as usual, didn’t manufacture anything out of nothing, but rather stirred up existing sparks until they became uncontrollable fires that consumed any hope for peace.
“So why haven’t Western governments shown more interest in investigating the massacre?”
LOL!
“Major Western media have ignored his studies “for political reasons”, he told me. This is despite the fact that Katchanovski’s other work on Ukraine (unrelated to the massacre) has received ample media attention, including from the Associated Press, Reuters and the Washington Post.”
And yet there are still people who think that the opinions they have formed about Russia and the Ukraine over the past few decades, from reading and viewing and listening to US sphere mainstream media, have some validity. That Russia (sorry, “Putin”) can’t be anything but a wannabe “evil Empire” that poisons people for reasons of pure gratuitous evil and invades countries purely to expand its power, because “everyone knows” about all the evil things the Russians and their proxies have done.
Just like “everyone knew” that covid was a deadly plague, that masks help, that climate change is a dangerous emergency that justifies emergency action, or that American police systematically murder blacks because they are black, and George Floyd was a saintly victim and anyone who pointed out his real nature as a nasty thug was a racist white supremacist..
This is the world we inhabit, in the Empire of Lies – one that is, if we listen to our mainstream sources of information uncritically, largely make believe.
Indeed. I think that once you understand how it all works in reality, it’s incredibly naïve to question why MSM aren’t publishing the truth. The best hope we have as a society is that more people become aware of what their government and MSM have done i.e. systematically lied to and manipulated the masses. The one positive I take from the last few years is that there are more people now realising that they’ve being taken for a fool. I’m definitely having many more conversations with people who have twigged on to something being seriously amiss. All Gov/MSM have to do to help is to carry on thinking that the masses are idiots and spooning out the same shite. I mean, the masses are idiots, but there is a sizeable minority that have the potential to not be hoodwinked – and at some point those people will notice. When that sizeable minority become big enough then there is a strong possibility that the sheep-like majority will then follow their lead. It’s a small hope, but a real one.
I don’t think it is a small hope. I think it is normal. That is how ideas, both good and bad, take hold. They start with a small group who then spread it outward.
The mistake most make is believing everyone needs to wake up. As you note, a minority is enough.
My take on just about any contentious issue is about 30% are true believers, an equivalent number reject it. And the remaining 40% or so go along with the prevailing narrative.
We saw something like these numbers in vax uptake. In the UK the jabbed are probably a little more than two-thirds. About 30% said no (it varied by age of course).
One thing I suspect will happen is overreach. We see this with the media and woke causes. All those black people on TV is being noticed by people who don’t pay much attention. That is likely with monkeypox and Covid-22 as well.
Good to see you back, Mark. Completely agree. By the way, is there any published material that takes Craig Murray’s presentation of the Skripal case any further?
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/04/pure-ten-points-i-just-cant-believe-about-the-official-skripal-narrative/
Hope people will keep posting useful sources eg Scott Ritter, Colonel Black, Jacques Baud, Mearsheimer. There are actually so many now that we could have a whole daily journal on Ukraine. It would attract sniper fire, however. Just waiting for it all to unravel, because that is what will happen, assuredly – unless we are to be incinerated as a result of American recklessness.
In that spirit, here are the Oliver Stone interviews with Putin; conducted in the years immediately following 2014.
I watched them at the time of their release, but find them much more interesting and revealing now.
They have the singular merit of being primary source material, in which Putin speaks for himself.
Oliver Stone – The Putin Interviews (Part 1) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Putin Interview Part # 2 : Showtime Documentary Films, New Element Media, Ixtlan Productions : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Oliver Stone – The Putin Interviews (Part 3) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
The Putin Interviews. Part 4 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Cheers, porgy. I wasn’t particularly interested in following further details of the Skripal nonsense once I satisfied myself that there was no possible plausibility in the UK regime account (and Murray’s work helped in that), so I don’t have any current info or links on that topic, sorry.
Hello Mark, good to have your contribution on here once again.
Cheers MAk. I wasn’t really away for long, just distracted by other matters, but it’s nice to be missed!
Common sense, background knowledge and information and balanced judgement are always missed in this Looking-glass world!
This is the world we inhabit, in the Empire of Lies – one that is, if we listen to our mainstream sources of information uncritically, largely make believe.
indeed it is. Let us hope that Francis Bacon is right, and that “Truth is the daughter of time, not of authority.”
And along the way, perhaps we’ll learn that “the shoddy and inept application of words lays siege to the intellect in wondrous ways”; and discover there are indeed very many stories “which have created sham worlds worthy of the stage”.
Yes “The Evil Empire” of Lies “( and its running dog associates of fully qualified stooges and liars).
Test question : “Who won the US 2020 election?”
I would up-vote you on this commentary but you are on 45 votes and I’m on 46
Only joking..thumbs up from me.
Just checked – I’ve already upvoted yours
Bravo!
Of course it was.
The western media ought now to prepare itself of collapse of the Zelensky regime.
Quick question, does that mean you desire the Putin regime to rule over Ukraine? Because while I don’t like Zelensky either; the alternative at this point is the kleptocratic and anti-freedom grip or Putin and his cronies. Those are your only two options now. The second coming of Thatcher or Disreili or Churchill aren’t option C.
First, it’s none of our business who “rules over the Ukraine”. Our only duty is to butt out, and to stop our governments contributing any further to the foreign interference that has destroyed any chance that country might have had for peace and prosperity.
Our own first priority should be addressing the structural and systemic problems within our own society that have led us to be so easily manipulated by our own (and US) political and social elites into disastrous policies based on outright lies – Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, covid, climate change, BLM nonsense, hatred of Russia, etc etc ad nauseam.
If we are taking a theoretical “what would be best for us/the world” position, then clearly a defeat for the US neocon/liberal interventionist policies of global aggression would be best, both for us and for the world.
If we are looking at what is theoretically best for “the Ukrainian people”, well, that obviously depends to an extent on which Ukrainian people you are talking about. In general terms, coming to a modus vivendi with their powerful neighbour and maintaining a tolerant federal attitude to Russian speakers would have been best, but we aren’t starting from there.
From where we are now, a breakup of the country seems inevitable and necessary. Crimea and the Donbass republics are never returning, and would probably be best as part of Russia, which they mostly seem to desire. The issue is what happens with the rest.
The longer the fighting goes on, the less will be left of the Ukraine,and the worse the conditions for its inhabitants.
“while I don’t like Zelensky either; the alternative at this point is the kleptocratic and anti-freedom grip or Putin and his cronies. Those are your only two options now. The second coming of Thatcher or Disreili or Churchill aren’t option C.”
Personalising these issues plays into the hands of the propagandists.
First, it’s none of our business who “rules over the Ukraine”. Our only duty is to butt out….
From where we are now, a breakup of the country seems inevitable and necessary. Crimea and the Donbass republics are never returning, and would probably be best as part of Russia, which they mostly seem to desire.
Hmmm…
“Hmmm…“
Not sure if you really are stupid enough to think this is some kind of clever “gotcha” or if you are just dishonest, but I suppose it’s necessary to point out what should be obvious to the average 12 year old here.
The second sentence you quoted came after, and was subject to, the qualifier “If we are looking at what is theoretically best for “the Ukrainian people”.
If your advice about it being ‘our’ duty to butt out of the issue (of who rules over Ukraine) purely refers to western logistical support for the Ukrainian army etc, does that same advice to butt out of who rules over Ukraine apply to the Russian state and armed forces (and those who directly or indirectly support them such as China):
And if not, why not?
If your butting out of the issue advice also applies to those making comments about it (on these boards and elsewhere as I assumed it did), then my point about there being an obvious contravention of it in your own post remains.
Finally re
“The second sentence you quoted came after, and was subject to, the qualifier “If we are looking at what is theoretically best for “the Ukrainian people”.
Is that how you interpret the Russian invasion and mass destruction / killing in that country?
The answer from this person is clearly that he would like Putin to own Ukraine.
You have obviously not understood what he wrote . Try again.
That’s an inconvenient question.
They won’t answer it, because it reveals one of the following:
I suspect it is answer 2. But they won’t admit to that either.
“Accepted “by whom?
You?
If true, how ironic that Russia’s tactics were used against their own interests.
“Russia’s tactics“
LOL!
The sheer determination of the indoctrinated to reject and to turn away from any chink of light can be quite impressive at times!
Um, yes, it is Russian tactics. Go back and look at Russia’s foreign policy actions in 19th century as she grew her empire. Look at how the USSR spread her influence across Asia, Africa and Latin America. This is exactly what Russian agent have done for two centuries.
Also, reminder: the far-right lost in Ukraine as the nation went the globalist pathway, seeking EU and NATO entry. Zelensky is a lot of things, but the choice of the far-right he is not.
“Um, yes, it is Russian tactics. Go back and look at Russia’s foreign policy actions in 19th century as she grew her empire. Look at how the USSR spread her influence across Asia, Africa and Latin America. This is exactly what Russian agent have done for two centuries.”
Do you really believe that there is a globally powerful nation in history that has not used such methods, when deemed necessary, to achieve or to secure its power? I will say that the British Empire was unique in many ways, and a force for good in many ways, but I won’t try to pretend that a lot of eggs weren’t broken in making that Imperial omelette, or in the retreat from it.
Are the actions of Tsarist Russia or the Soviet Union somehow relevant to the Russian state today, but the actions of past regimes in all other nations somehow are not?
Is this the world you live in, where the actions of states today are determined by cliched and distorted ideas of their “nature” from generally biased historical sources?
Small wonder, if your ideas about geopolitical reality are determined by such ideas of immutable national characteristics, that you seem unable to grasp that the global situation has changed and it is our own country (or rather, the woke globalist borg that our rulers form part of) that is the problem.
“Also, reminder: the far-right lost in Ukraine as the nation went the globalist pathway, seeking EU and NATO entry. Zelensky is a lot of things, but the choice of the far-right he is not.”
The parties of the “far right” lost in the voting because their core ideas of poisonous anti-Russian nationalism had entered the mainstream in the Ukraine.
When did you first start hating Russia?
We are in the 21st Century and Russia is not the USSR.
Yes but Putin is striving to make it the USSR again.
Cluelss!
Now that’s just against the “sceptical narrative”…they won’t like it.
Yes, a bit like those thanking the” miracle vaccine” that Johnson so successfully forced on the trusting population for the fact that the “Covid” “they contracted after their 5th jab was “not a lot worse”!
The “Cult of Unreason” is upon us!
The problem with getting to the truth in this is the inordinate amount of time it takes to review the evidence, most people will not bother, especially if it’s politically inconvinient.
The “Roses have Throns” documentry series pieces together video and news footage in choronological order, it’s >12 hours long all together, the viewer is left with no doubt Katchanovski is broadly correct.
https://www.watchdogmediainstitute.com/p/blog-page.html
A much sorter version ~14 mins takes clips from the series to show the US was heavily involved in the coup
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZiJRnaom_E
Also of note was the IMF loan deal to Ukraine agreed on May 1st, the day before the Trade Union House massacre of anti-maidan protestors by Neo-Nazi malitia, it was conditional on Ukraine putting a stop to the protests.
Crucial to this discussion is the phone conversation between Victoria Nuland (Assistant Sercetary of State) and Geoffrey Pyatt (US Ambassador to Ukraine).
They discussed the personnel of the new government two weeks before the coup.
The Nuland-Pyatt tape has – after eight years – been taknen down off Youtube.
In part because there was nothing peculiar about it. Guess what, the US State and CIA operatives have lists of who they want to form next government in every nation (yes, ours included). They also have plans on how to overthrow every government. China and Russia have the same conversations. The fact is, the US didn’t get to establish the next government. And they were not much thrilled in 2019 when Zelensky won.
And all of this doesn’t justify an invasion by another nation.
You will, of course, have evidence of all this.
“Evidence”? Political science is surely like Medical Science, now based on the simple phrase:
“Trust me , I’m a Doctor”.
We see the consequences in the Yellow Card and ONS stats.
“while George Friedman has described what happened as “the most blatant coup in history”.”
That piece should be required reading for the dupes who still think in Cold War terms, of a noble “west” resisting evil.
It’s always amusing to me how the US supremacists can get away with openly saying the truth, secure in the knowledge that few will ever hear it, and most who do will just dismiss anything that conflicts with their own manufactured “knowledge” about the world and how it works.
Friedman, in that December 2014 interview, talks about the bald realities of international power, but does so from a US hegemonist perspective in which the US is the dominant power, and in which the long term greater good requires it remaining so and expanding its authority. That way lies de facto world government. But at least he has no time, in this piece at least, for pandering to the usual spin and lies that rationalise and seek to justify this hegemony by lying about the world. His arrogant confidence at the time meant he clearly felt no need to do so, That might be different today.
Worth, as they say, reading in full, and digesting carefully:
Stratfor Chief’s “Most Blatant Coup in History” Interview Translated in Full
I guess…I don’t understand the controversy there. Of course the US (and Russia and China) want hegemony. And gives support to all movements towards that direction. But the CIA in 2013-2014 did not have the assets on hand to pull off a coup. In fact; they were completely surprised by it.
Let’s recall that the goal of Maidan protests were for Ukraine to enter the EU. The US didn’t have Yukonovich flip 180 on his campaign promises and direction of policy to work towards a Russian pact instead. That was actions by FSB. Did the US encourage and give technical assistance to protestors? No doubt. But again, it all began because days before signing the papers to move EU process forward (why they want to join EU is beyond me), the policy flipped on its head.
So yes, US wants global hegemony. So does Russia. Ukrainians mostly just want to be prosperous, at peace, and not drowning in corruption.
j
So what was Victoria Nuland doing in the Ukraine?
She was, and remains, the fall guy.
Gender flexible as well then! Never would have guessed.
Equating Russia with the US is comical. The US is the global hegemon. Its only real potential rival is China. Russia is not a peer rival, but merely a rival state powerful enough to defend its independence.
“Of course the US (and Russia and China) want hegemony. And gives support to all movements towards that direction. But the CIA in 2013-2014 did not have the assets on hand to pull off a coup. In fact; they were completely surprised by it.”
Here you admit the reality but try to deny it at the same time by creating a straw man.
US interference rarely operates by detailed control or creating conflict out of nothing. It foments and promotes existing division, and it interferes in and exploits events that result.
That is the story of the Ukraine.
All powerful states seek to influence events in other countries. The difference between Russia’s and the US’s actions in the Ukraine are that the US travelled to the other side of the world to promote division and violence as an act of aggression against a (non-peer) rival, whereas Russia defended its vital interests in a neighbouring state with huge cultural, historical and business interdependence with itself, that within living memory had been part of the same state.
“Ukrainians mostly just want to be prosperous, at peace, and not drowning in corruption.”
Doubtless, and many of them fell for the bright shining lie that is the US sphere propaganda machine. But many also did not.
“Russia defended its vital interests in a neighbouring state” …by invading that state, flattening cities and killing the people.
And said it is to protect those same people.
You have really swallowed the CIA version of truth whole haven’t you?
Russia attempted to maintain its proxy rule over Ukraine. There’s no defence for this, no excuse.
Evidence required.
Thank you Noah, for all your hard work.
Every time the USA interferes in another country’s politics, death and disaster follows, oh not for America’s arms industry though, thats a booming industry, nor for American lives or habitat! Anyone who has seen videos of what happened with the Maidan massacre, the people burnt alive, other jumping from a burning building and having their brains bashed in by neo nazis whilst the police just stood and watched! These are the animals our western governments are supporting and yet Russia gets the blame! Its a pity people don’t do the research before they start badmouthing Russia – we have nothing to commend ourselves for.
“Every time the USA interferes in another country’s politics, death and disaster follows”
Brilliant single sentence summary – says it all really.
The plot thickens.
Many thanks Noah and DS for publishing it.
Usual lazy journalism.
Define far right please.
Tory party, New Labour…
That would be far left.
More globalist corporatist than far left.
My point being is that ‘far right’ is casually associated with Naziism, which was left wing.
Nonsense.
One of your posts said that was your position.
The far-right were certainly agitators during the 90 days of Maidan protests. To the point actual pro-EU groups tried to out them, make it clear to Yuko that they weren’t part of their movement. FYI, the far-right did not want to join EU either. It’s perfectly plausible that the far-right did some or most of the killing. The secret police had already killed several protestors, ordinary pro-EU people before that day using clubbed weapons.
But here is the big thing: the far-right didn’t win. At no point have they pulled more than 5% of the vote. They have had at max 1 member of Parliament. Ukraine continued to want to join EU. Far-right leaders were purged from Ukrainian militias when they were absorbed into national guard. And most all far-right leaders despise and have denounced Zelensky government.
And most importantly, there is no legal justification for an invasion of another nation, for bombing of civilians, or of mass-murder. I despise the far-right and ultra-nationalists as much as anyone. As in wouldn’t spit on them if on fire. But Ukraine, comparatively has a far small far-right movement than Austria, Italy, or Germany. And significantly smaller than its neighbour, Russia. Defending Russia’s actions because Putin is anti-woke and globalists backed Zelensky is missing the point because there are worse evil. That justification would make you back the CCP too.
The size of the far rights political campaigning is dwarfed by its influence on all sections of Ukraine society and government.
“But Ukraine, comparatively has a far small far-right movement than Austria, Italy, or Germany.”
Do any of those countries have elite military units openly espousing neo-nazi symbols and beliefs?
Do any of them appoint open neo-nazis to positions of power and influence?
The reality is there would be wild hysteria in the US sphere if anyone like these people were anywhere near such positions in the US, UK, Germany, etc, and you would be joining in with it. You just suppress your response in the case of the Ukraine because you don’t want inconvenient truths to interfere with your view about the rights and wrongs of the strategic situation there.
“And most importantly, there is no legal justification for an invasion of another nation, for bombing of civilians, or of mass-murder. “
So you’re a pacificist?
If so, that’s your problem, and I leave it to you to explain how you would deal with the kinds of issues raised in conflict situations.
But in the real world, there absolutely are both legal and moral justifications for the use of force. The difficult issues are invariably whether those justifications apply in a particular case, and the use of tendentious and often outright false terms such as “bombing of civilians”, or “mass-murder” (with the implication in each case of intent) certainly doesn’t help to clarify those issues.
Why do you imagine Russia was camped on the border between Russia and Donbas?
They had intelligence that Donbas was to be invaded by western Ukraine and the likely result would be ethnic cleansing.
In the seven days prior to Russia intervening there was an artillery bombardment of Donbas by the western Ukrainian’s. Concerted, persistent and concentrated artillery is always the prelude to mechanised invasion.
Up until this point of the last 8 years, the Donbas region had always refused direct Russian intervention, but on this occasion didn’t.
Aware that the Russians were on the border there can only be one of two reasons for the Ukrainian artillery barrage:
It seems likely that, unlike the west who stood by and watched the Rwanda and Bosnia atrocities before intervening, Putin wasn’t prepared to watch ethnic Russians being massacred.
His Army pursued the Ukrainian military to the centre of their military and political power in Kiev where they destroyed all the ground an air assets. They have since withdrawn to Donbas and dug in. Entirely consistent with straightforward military tactics and Putin’s stated intention to protect the people of Donbas.
We of course note that the media’s claims of Russia’s imminent defeat and the destruction of the Russian armed forces have all but disappeared. The latest ridiculous piece of propaganda is that the Ukrainian winners of the Eurovision song contest are to sell their trophy to buy Drones (plural) for Ukraine.
The Boeing Insitu ScanEagle cost’s around $1m and is purely a reconnaissance drone often used by the US border control.
Reaper drones, a weapons platform, starts at $32m. That’s without training to use it which would take weeks if not months.
The nonsense we are expected to swallow over Ukraine is simplistic and dismal.
You really have swallowed the Russian viewpoint (propaganda)
As no-one in the West is freely allowed to view the Russian media version of events because of unprecedented Media censorship in the ‘”democratic Free World”( sic) – how do you even know what Russian” propaganda currently is?
All the public have is uninterrupted UK/US propaganda of the Clintonesque “Putin is Hitler” variety and level – which apparently you are happy to swallow! ( Along with I presume: ” There are no Nazis in the Ukraine only heroic “freedom fighters” and Biden won the US election by a landslide” ).
Yes.
As mentioned by Noah Carl the Oliver Stone films Ukraine on Fire and Revealing Ukraine document the probable “false flag” events.
The neo-Nazis themselves have also admitted that they may have only been a small percentage in the Maidan riots but their actions was a huge influence on the end result.
It is highly likely they had backing from Western governments.
If Oliver Stones involved then you can be sure its is not only completely wrong but mostly fabricated. His “documentaries” and films involved the same distortions selective quoting and misleading editing I see daily on Russian TV at the moment. And the outright fabricated of setup situations and events.
Stone makes sh*t up. Always has. A very nasty and repellent person in real life despite the act.
There was gross inference and plotting by some high EU / US people at the time. So what. The Russians had spent the previous 15 years interfering in the domestic politics of all their neighbors. The one person on the EU side in Kyiv at the time who did overstep the mark was the person who made completely wild and unsustainable promises which never could have been kept. That was a big destabilizing factor. But if she had not I am sure Putin would have done something else equally disruptive.
Straw man argument.
The article is about Katchanovski’s evidence, not Stone, who merely included some of it in his documentary.
Examine the evidence, not the messenger who did, or more importantly, didn’t publish it.
We cannot assume anything of the kind. But it is so very convenient for you to assume that rather than address the evidence itself.
The leader of Neo-Nazi gang admitting their role in the Maidan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOBntnuYCMA
He doesn’t openly say they’re killing people, although it’s clear he means violence.
BBC and Co: ‘peaceful Maidan protesters’. Yeah, right.
The Ukrainian Government Riot Police had no guns, only helmets, batons and shields.Video images clearly show them brutalised and even deliberately set on fire by “elements” of the crowd.
There is plenty of video footage of the assaults available.
A) Whoever was responsible the deaths of 49 people in Kyiv on 20 February 2014 provides zero justification for the 10s of thousands of deaths that have taken place in Kyiv and Ukraine as a whole since the 24 February 2020 invasion by the Russian Federation.
No doubt about responsibility there.
B) Regarding Ivan Katchanovski’s false flag theory, he claims that ‘at least an absolute majority’ of the protesters were killed by anti-government snipers. In other words even after a near impenetrable 75 page document plus supporting visual evidence he can provide no precise figures.
C) We are meant to believe that over the course of 2 hours snipers were given free reign to occupy and make use of anti-government occupied buildings (such as the Hotel Ukraine) to murder protesters, with no one intervening.
D) There would be absolutely no motivation for such a false flag. The Yanukovich regime and its Berkut enforcers had already used mass murderous force against largely unarmed protestors, and the Ukrainian Parliament was already in near total opposition to it.
E) Further to the above, Katchanovski’s claim that an unnamed western government official instigated this alleged false flag operation by stating that there ‘needed to be over 100 deaths before western governments would cease to recognise the Yanukovich regime’ is laughable on so many different levels.
https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/the-hidden-origin-of-the-escalating-ukraine-russia-conflict
Apart from the nonsensical idea of a magic death number, President Yanukovich was removed from office by a 328 to zero vote in the Ukrainian Parliament. The whole issue had nothing to do with external recognition or non-recognition.
And the presence of this ludicrous (but politically convenient) claim completely undermines the credibility of all the rest of Katchanovski’s theorising.
F) 21 of the 25 members of the elite Black Company squad of the Berkut accused of the massacre fled to Russia immediately after the event – hardly an indication of innocence.
In any case ultimately it would be impossible to say with certainty who carried out all the killings in Kyiv on 20 February 2014 and from what motivation.
What is certain is that President Yanukovich reneged on his electoral commitment to an EU trade deal, instead instigated a unilateral one with Russia, defied the overwhelming majority of the Ukrainian Parliament, ordered the brutal and murderous suppression of overwhelmingly non-violent street protests, was voted out of office and fled to Russia.
And what is equally certain is that none of the above events from 8 years ago provide any sort of justification for the overwhelmingly greater quantity of mass murder being carried out by Russian forces in Ukraine today.
Wow!
Kool Aid is getting powerful these days.
Whilst Katchanovski openly presents the gaps in his evidence, you are absolutely certain, from your rudimentary analysis of a situation you haven’t studied in depth for the last 8 years, that everything was as presented by the official narrative.
Furthermore, your shrill condemnation of Russia as the perpetrator of the current situation entirely ignores that western Ukraine were the aggressors and mounted an artillery bombardment of Donbas for seven days before Russia’s intervention.
Russia invoked its right to protect another UN region under UN Article 51 which is clear on the subject. Russia was entitled to intervene.
Article 51
of the Charter of the United Nations
24 Oct. 1945 -|Last updated: 01 Oct. 2009 15:42
EnglishFrenchRussian
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
From your link:
“However, a full-scale Russian ground invasion and occupation of the entire territory of Ukraine appears to be less likely than a more limited use of military force. This could include Russian recognition of independence of the self-proclaimed separatist republics in the Donbas (the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics), an open deployment of Russian troops and advanced weapons in the separatist-controlled region, a seizure of the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, or missile and air strikes of Ukrainian military targets in the Donbas and other territories.”
Which appears to be precisely what’s happening.
“According to testimonies by over 100 wounded protesters, several dozen prosecution witnesses, and forensic ballistic and medical examinations by government experts, the massacre of the absolute majority of protesters and police at the Maidan (central square) in Kyiv on February 20, 2014 was perpetrated principally by members of the Maidan opposition, specifically its far-right elements.”
This is what’s known as evidence, a concept clearly beyond you. At the very least it cast’s doubt on the official narrative, and you can be certain that when evidence is destroyed prior to an investigation, something stinks.
Nor an admission of guilt, and everyone in a civilised judicial system has the presumption of innocence until found guilty. Nor have they been found guilty in their absence because there has been no official investigation.
Had an investigation been mounted to establish their guilt or innocence, it would have opened a can of worms. Undoubtedly why one has never been opened.
It’s not necessary “to say with certainty who carried out all the killings in Kyiv” simply that there was a deliberate attempt by someone to kill people. Even from the link you posted there is sufficient cause to suspect there was a deliberate attempt by actors in Maidan-controlled buildings to shoot innocent people.
A full investigation was necessary but the world turned its back.
You would rather the genocide of ethnic Russians in the east than Putin intervening to stop it?
“TheTruth” carries its own weight!
You would rather the genocide of ethnic Russians in the east than Putin intervening to stop it?
A) The ‘genocide’ allegedly taking place in Donbas immediately prior to the invasion involved a sum total of 7 civilian deaths through direct military action (and that means killed by either side) in the whole of 2021. The very year that President Putin began amassing his invasion force on the Ukrainian borders.
The situation in eastern Ukraine, though by no means perfect, had massively clamed down since both the Minsk Agreement and accession of President Zelensky in 2019.
B) How many civilians (never mind soldiers on either side) have died in Donbas since the Putin regime began its merciful and anti-genocidal ‘special military operation’ in February 2022?
Look up the “Corruption Perceptions Index” which lists countries by their perceived level of corruption. Ukraine is 122nd on the list, Albanian is considered to be less corrupt. As corruption goes Ukraine is up there with African countries.
So before you give money to the Ukraine just think how big the Ukrainian Oligarchs super yacht will be.
(I use to belong to a social/charitable organisation, but I have got deluded and no longer give to charity. I’ve heard of so many cases of corruption that I no longer care. (One charitable activity took the biscuit as far as I’m concerned. Funds were being raised to enable clean water for African villages. These water stand pipes were installed and people had access to clean water. A year later the stand pipes and associated equipment had been removed and was being used for politicians swimming pools.))
And the Biden crime syndicate.
Of course it was a False Flag – this was obvious at the time – for details ask Victoria (“F*ck the EU”) Nuland who ran the whole show!
Why is this even a debate?
As I recall, the highly qualified Baroness Ashton, so grandly titled “High Representative of the EU in Foreign Affairs” ( who so usefully speaks no “Foreign” language). Was told by the Prime Minister of a Baltic State exactly what was going on and famously replied “Gosh!” !
Of course it was a False Flag – this was obvious at the time – for details ask Victoria (“F*ck the EU”) Nuland who ran the whole show! Why is this even a debate?
Yes, clearly this relatively minor US government official (who made an off the cuff remark in a private conversation with another relatively minor official) was able to use her overwhelming personal powers to force hundreds of thousand of Ukrainian citizens onto the streets in protest against the Yanukovich regime, compel anti-government snipers to murder members of their own side in a false flag operation, and hypnotise the Ukrainian Parliament into voting 328 to nil to have President Yanukovich removed from office.
Why, indeed, is such an obvious fact even discussed?.
Do you imagine they would give this job to a senior political figure in Obama’s government?
Don’t be ridiculous, she’s expendable.
She is also easy to hide in the woodwork (until she starts giving out cakes in her unbridled enthusiasm to support the ‘coup’ that is!).
Of course, just a “relatively minor US government official“. Empowered by the “over $5 billion” we’ve “invested in the Ukraine“.
Victoria Nuland US has invested $5 billion in Ukraine
Of course, “we certainly didn’t spend any money supporting the Maidan“, or trying to drive that country in any particular direction. Well, obviously “we” pushed it towards its “European future“, but that’s just the path of goodness and light, and we only support it because we are noble altruists seeking the good of foreigners everywhere and spending US taxpayers’ money frugally in support of the path of goodness and light. for their benefit alone, not at all in our own interests.
You get to choose how plausible you think that nonsense is.
In this speech of December 2013 (ie before the 20 February massacre) Victoria Nuland expressed the US government’s support for the Ukrainian people’s democratic right (as expressed through both parliamentary and presidential election results) to move toward integration into Europe and its liberal democratic traditions; rather than be forced into stronger alignment with the quasi-totalitarian Russian state through the unilateral decisions of President Yanukovich (going against his own electoral pledges).
She also supported their right to peaceful demonstration free from the sort of brutal suppression that had already been carried out under the orders of the Yanukovich government .
And finally she mentioned that since Ukraine’s independence from the now dismantled tyrannical Soviet Union in 1991 the US had provided $5 billion to assist it in its desire to create democratic structures.
All of this comprises a straightforward morally and practically supportive agenda, and none of it the sort of hidden manipulation or mind control that the ‘the US was pulling the strings and engineered a coup in Ukraine’ Russian propagandist theories suggest.
“All of this comprises a straightforward morally and practically supportive agenda,“
Of course it does. Those noble neocons, of whom Nuland very definitely is one, both by marriage and by inclination, are only motivated by altruism and never tell lies, unless they are Straussian noble lies, for the greater good of us all. Even, if only they understood it and could see the bigger picture, those whose societies are destroyed and whose families are blown to bits as a result.
When encountering such colossal naivety and ignorance, it’s genuinely difficult to know if we are dealing with honest foolishness, intentional lies, or some kind of spoof.
Straussian Noble Lie:
“Strauss noted that thinkers of the first rank, going back to Plato, had raised the problem of whether good and effective politicians could be completely truthful and still achieve the necessary ends of their society. By implication, Strauss asks his readers to consider whether it is true that noble lies have no role at all to play in uniting and guiding the polis. He questions whether myths are needed to give people meaning and purpose and whether they ensure a stable society in contrast to the more skeptical attitude which posits that men dedicated to the relentless examination of, in Nietzschean language, “deadly truths” can flourish freely, all the while concluding with an inquiry into whether there can be a limit to the political and epistemic absolutes. In The City and Man, Strauss discusses the myths outlined in Plato’s Republic that are required for all governments. These include a belief that the state’s land belongs to it even though it was likely acquired illegitimately and that citizenship is rooted in something more than the accidents of birth. Seymour Hersh also claims that Strauss endorsed noble lies: myths used by political leaders seeking to maintain a cohesive society.[8][9] In The Power of Nightmares, documentary filmmaker Adam Curtis opines that “Strauss believed it was for politicians to assert powerful and inspiring myths that everyone could believe in. They might not be true, but they were necessary illusions. One of these was religion; the other was the myth of the nation.”[10]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie#Leo_Strauss
Leo Strauss and the Noble Lie: The Neo-Cons at War
“By the summer of 2003 – when the hunt for banned Iraqi WMD’s had gone nowhere and the Al Qaeda connection to Saddam had disappeared into thin air along with Saddam and Osama themselves, the cumulative disappointment shook the official rationale for the Anglo American invasion of Iraq. This placed Mr. Rumsfeld and the civilian policy makers in his Pentagon group on the defensive and set them up for the critics who had been waiting impatiently in the wings during
the short but triumphal march to Baghdad. Secretary Rumsfeld’s credibility problems had now become Blair’s and Bush’s nightmare—provoking a transatlantic media storm that has touched the
political establishments of the co-belligerents. In London this affair has mainly raised questions about the honesty of Mr. Blair and his press and defense secretaries. I In Washington it has done so as well, and the prevailing view of the Administration’s war policy among its critics is summed up succulently by the United for Peace slogan: “Bush lies—Americans die.” But this affair has also a raised a related and perhaps even more troubling question about the philosophical roots of the ideology that’s driving the “counter-revolution” in foreign and domestic policy within the Bush Administration. In short, the relation between strategic disinformation and political truth has been very much on our minds of late—along with some concerns about the lessons taught by Leo Strauss to the brilliant group of his former students who now occupy the seats of power in Washington“
“Of course it does. Those noble neocons, of whom Nuland very definitely is one, both by marriage and by inclination, are only motivated by altruism and never tell lies, unless they are Straussian noble lies, for the greater good of us all. Even, if only they understood it and could see the bigger picture, those whose societies are destroyed and whose families are blown to bits as a result.”
I did not say a syllable about the issues you just raised (I don’t deal in personal labelling and judgements, just ideological and practical matters) but rather responded to the video of a Nuland speech you put forward as proof that she / the US government engineered and were responsible for the situation in Ukraine in 2014.
And the speech contains no evidence of that type whatsoever, it simply expresses a morally supportive stance towards those seeking more European style liberal democracy and less Russian type tyranny in Ukraine, as I indicated in my first reply.
Incidentally if your position now is that the speech was full of the sort of ‘Straussian noble lies’ you ascribe to ‘neocons’ I wonder why you recommended it in the first place.
Finally re “if only they understood it and could see the bigger picture,those whose societies are destroyed and whose families are blown to bits as a result” –
Is that your advice to Ukrainians suffering from that sort of treatment from Russian (not US) forces just now – to see the bigger picture?
BS – pure and simple!
And we all know where this forced democracy through American interference leads. It leads to failed states of which there are many examples.
How much of this aid ended up laundered and in the offshores? Judging by the fact that Ukraine used to be a power-house of soviet republics and now is one of the poorest countries GDP wise, a lot of this aid has been stolen, most likely.
You believe Victoria Nuland.
How sweet.
Well if the new position is that Victoria Nuland’s speech was riven with lies and deception, can you explain to me why Mark recommended it as proof of US instigation and control of the situation in Ukraine in 2014? (I have asked Mark himself already).
“Relatively minor” – in your universe of course – check out her husband’s contribution to the New American Century project and her role since Clinton was in Office.
“Compel”? Nazis don’t need compulsion – they kill for pleasure.
“Of the cuff” reveals the true level of contempt American neo- cons have for their European ‘allies ( or ‘compliant stooges’ as they ought to be known)
Equally, however, Russia’s invasion does not justify ignoring – in his words – “overwhelming and undeniable evidence” of Maidan snipers.
Russia’s “invasion” is about far far more than the Maidan killinsgs. That should be clear to all of us by now.
Only those who bother to inform themselves and avoid MSM propaganda – so around 10% of the population – (max)?
Stop calling him Max, Shirley……..
The government want to shut down free speech on the internet because far too many people are waking up to the fact that ‘our team’ are the baddies.
Or at least ‘our’ team has become too big (through all the supranational organisations and big states) and is now hopelessly corrupt and unaccountable to ordinary people, who are effectively held hostage by non-domicile corporations, internationalist treaty organisations such as the UN, WHO and EU and manipulative organisations, such as the WEF and Soros’s businesses.
The WEF is running indoctrination ‘academies’ whose graduates are then placed into governments, civil services and big business, not to serve the people, but to further the aims of the WEF and its kin. Essentially, the lunatic cults of the 19th and early 20th centuries have ditched the village halls and moved to Davos. The military or workman’s clothes have been replaced by Italian designer bespoke suits. But they’re still the same authoritarian, Platonic, genocidal loons of 100 years ago and right now, it feels like we’re all living in 1913 again!
Talk about not seeing the woods for the trees. It’ll be like the OJ Simpson trial next. Oh thank you thank you, New York Times. But whoooppps, they’ve missed the Israeli angle.
“If others believe that Katchanovski is mistaken, they must come forward and present their arguments.”
That’s called sealioning. He can answer this message if he wishes.
Hey let’s set up a Maidan Truther movement to bore everyone to death.
Of course it was a f***ing coup, and the snipers were instructed by those who benefited from the coup, and it was successful. We don’t need any academics to tell us that.
Occam……..
Not too sure where Mr Carl is going with this.
As Mr Katchanovski says:
‘The absolute majority of the Maidan protesters, activists, members, and supporters of the “Euromaidan” mass protests and parties that led these protests, including the victims among the protestors, were not aware about the actual organizers and perpetrators of this politically motivated murder and not involved in any other way in this mass killing…’
The “Snipers’ Massacre” on the Maidan in Ukraine September 2015 Conference: Annual Meeting of American Political Science Association San Francisco
What’s your point?
It’s not a point. It’s a question.
Why do you ask?
Doesn’t sound like a question to me. It sounds like a statement, but, as RHS said, what is your point in making it?
My question, plain as a pike staff to anyone with a scintilla of perspicacity, is ‘where is Mr Carl going with this?’.
Mr Katchanovski’s excellent work has been in the public domain since 2015. He points out that most involved in the Maidan protest had no clue or complicity regarding the ‘false flag’ shootings.
So what, exactly, is the point that the article is trying to make?
Do you know?
Title of the article: “Was the Maidan massacre a false flag?”
Answer supplied by the article: yes it was.
Clearly, if the protesters had known in advance that many of them were to be murdered by their own side they would, at the very least, have been less likely to be there.
Do you believe we shouldn’t know what happened?
The answer to that question has been clear since 2015.
What is the point of this article?
The “clear answer” has been denied by all western Governments and politicians in support of the coup presented and faked as a spontaneous ‘democratic’ ( sic) popular uprising ‘ sponsored by the CIA and US State Department, with the EU trotting along behind, to secure an anti-Russian regime change in the Ukraine.
It was a great success! The article serves as a very timely reminder of where the current Ukraine conflict started , who started it and why.
Evidence for these assertions?
Clearly not as at least two of us didn’t understand what you were driving at.
To anyone with a scintilla of perspicacity
Someone with perspicacity would see that that you quite clearly admitted a lack of knowledge (“I don’t know”). That is a statement.
You patently did not ask the question that claim you did. The words are quite clear.
The nuances of English are often tricky to those for whom it is not their first language.
What happened to the mandate drop in healthcare, anyone heard anything out of interest?
I wonder if they will push it back to prevent this site getting a scoop lol.
Does anyone imagine that the biggest coup against global democracy, the rigging of the 2020 US Presidential election could be rigged, and the politics of a flat broke, corrupt country like Ukraine couldn’t be manipulated?
As long as there’s 5% for the big-guy
Make it 10% – inflation is rampant!
They stopped Trump from rigging the election.
He tried but failed.
Dream on!
Hilarious. Do you do stand up?
False flag seems at least possible, nazis too perhaps. Who has come closest to his ambitions since? Putin of course, perhaps the nazi snipers were Wagner Group (‘Putin’s Own’). The seizing of Crimea starting on 20th February was hardly a coincidence. Russia has been replacing Crimea’s population since 1783 to secure its warm water port. Duginist Novorossiya fantasies and oil and gas offshore are the latest incentives.
1783! – a lot of vodka has flowed under the bridge since 1783!
You know that Crimea’s population were Tartars and other minority groups from central Asia with only small slavic tribes represented don’t you?
Western Ukrainians have nothing in common with them and in fact they are among group the Azovs want ‘ ethnically cleansed’ from a ” racially pure”” Ukraine.
Russia is of course multi-ethnic in composition .
Ukraine has no valid cultural or ethnic claim of Crimea whatever, only the whim of Khrushchev – who was Ukrainian and handed it to his own!
Are you talking about the Tartars deported in 1944 by Beria (Putin of course a KGB man very much in that tradition as shown by the current deportations of Ukrainians to all parts of Russia)? Perhaps the Greeks, Armenians, Georgians and other Christians who founded Mariupol in 1780 after being deported from Crimea? Zelenskiy a Russophone Jew was elected by an overwhelming majority in 2019 and at the subsequent parliamentary election the ‘far-right’ coalition got 2% of the vote and no seats. His platform included negotiating peace with Russia.
Yes indeed ‘minorities’ – not the Slav Ukrainians preferred by the “ethnic cleansing” Azov Brigades .
Rigged elections are now all the rage or haven’t you noticed?
Z was lying about his “negotiation” with Russia as we have see and by the refusal to implement the Minsk agreement – in fact he lies nearly as much as Johnson, his new best friend!
The “far right” as yo call them were already filling up the Militias so who needs Parliamentary seats in a dictatorship?
Tell us where the Ukraine ‘Opposition” leaders are now in n
Zelensky’s sham ‘democracy’..
So no problem with genocide as long as it’s of ‘minorities’?
In 2021 – the last treaty that exists to regulate nuclear weapons expires. What then?
start video with Putin at 2 mins
https://www.bitchute.com/video/R9tt5Aq1UMc/
Maidan Massacre possible False Flag? Doesn’t matter
Neo Nazi in Ukraine? Doesn’t matter
Hunter Biden dark deals in Ukraine? Doesn’t matter
Zelensky’s hidden wealth? Doesn’t matter
Pentagon sponsored bio-labs in Ukraine? Doesn’t matter
Persecution of Russians? Doesn’t matter
Donbass war and atrocities from the Ukrainian side? Doesn’t matter
Pouring of weapons by the west facilitating the proxy war (prior to 2022)? Doesn’t matter
And the list of inconvenient truths goes on…
If we are laying out all the facts, we should start with the fact that the Maidan riots were started when Yanukovych rejected the Association Agreement with the EU that had been overwhelmingly accepted by the Ukrainian parliament. There has long been, in the west of Ukraine at least, a very strong popular demand for accession to the EU. This isn’t confected by Victoria Nuland, or the US, or the (villain voice) “globalists,” it is real.
Ukraine has long had a corruption problem, and I find it very easy to believe that the Maidan uprising was both a false flag operation and extremely popular among Ukrainian people, just as Yanukovych was both wrongly removed from office and corrupt as f*ck.
Or, “corrupt as Zelensky”!
I just don’t get this hatred for Zelensky, some people need him to be a devil. Even someone who disagrees with Zelensky should admire his personal courage in the face of possible death, but that admirable character trait just seems to enrage some people.
How should we view the vast amount of money he has accumulated between his time as an actor and comedian, and the last 8 years?
Just how does any politician make $1bn on a salary of a few hundred thousand?
What a load of old horse shit. You have no idea how much money Zelensky has made in the last 8 years. Ukraine is a corrupt country, it is quite possible any President there is corrupt, but you have pulled a fantasy number from the internet because you want it to be true rather than the kind of hard evidence that a true sceptic looks for.
He has ‘powerful friends’ overseas who currently see him as “useful”?
Gives new edge to the old cliché: “a price worth paying”?
‘Even someone who disagrees with Zelensky should admire his personal courage’
Every single soldier fighting on either side is braver than that globalist tw@t sat in his bunker far away from enemy fire.
I very much doubt he’s at any personal risk – at least not from the Russians. And I’m not sure my well of sympathy extends to people who have -actively or passively – enabled and supported racially-based ethnic cleansing. There is no scenario in which he is the good guy.
So why exactly do you think that Russian airborne forces made an attack on Hostomol airport on 24th February? You think that they were coming to tickle Zelensky until he laughed?
Ever since Victor Yushchenko was poisoned by unknown forces, I think every President of Ukraine not well disposed to Putin has been at some personal risk.
He’s no devil – just a stooge!
Brexit was nearly overturned. What’s your point?
You think Johnson has delivered the “Brexit “we imagined?
Nope. My point is that our ‘democracy’ was almost turned on its head. Why do we imagine one of the most corrupt ‘democracies’ would be any better?
Did you know the referendum was advisory. Since the Brexit claims were broadly lies, there would have been justification in parliament overturning it.
MPs have an obligation to act in the best interests of their constituents. Obviously this is ignored, as they act only to maximise their election chances.
No “lies” from the Remainer Civil Servants the BBC and the duplicitous two -faced Cameron/May Government of course?
The current fashion in Whitehall encouraged from the top for wholesale and blatant lying about simply everything started with Brexit.
A sound point.
You mean the” have your cake and eat it” BREXIT.
Observe the frictionless trade to NI.
No, simply a return of National Sovereignty to a functioning Sovereign Parliament for the whole United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland would have been be a good start.
The cake metaphor is for Johnson – it was always just EU nonsense as far as the Brexit debate was concerned .
The reality is that the EU is just an anti-free trade, protectionist Cartel, run by unelected power grabbing bureaucrats with Globalist aspirations and allegiance to the World Bank and Davos – who knew?
And a reminder of where the war of hatred promoted by the US-backed Ukrainian regime ends: terrorism.
“Russians With Attitude
@RWApodcast
Two volunteers involved in the distribution of humanitarian aid in the city were injured, a man and a woman. Their injuries are critical but not life-threatening.
Quote Tweet
CNN
@CNN
· 2h
Car bomb explodes in Melitopol, southern Ukraine, outside a building where occupying Russian officials are based, Russian state media says https://cnn.it/3PKNnqR”
https://twitter.com/RWApodcast/status/1531234241828245504
The US is the principal World Sponsor of terrorism !
The US armed ‘freedom fighters’, the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, against the USSR who considered them terrorists.
Fast forward to when the US invaded Afghanistan and the Mujahideen turned their stockpiled weapons against them. Suddenly those freedom fighters became terrorists.
Just one of many instances.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/UvNDNb4o6MKh/
Fascinating lecture by Dr A Fursov.
Analysing the political and economic situation, the post capitalist world, the Great Reset, the deliberate pauperisation of the majority and the new controllers.
Watch on 2x speed as it is subtitled. In Russian and a novel perspective from someone outside the western consensus outlook.
Indeed it was facinating, thanks for sharing Kate.
I think he gave too much away about the “multipolar” stuff for the closing argument to stick. I’m not buying it, Russia, China are all in on the CBDC stuff, they also played the covid game (as did Trump) not to mention the timing of Ukraine.
They’re putting on a good show, but you can still see the bricks at the back of the theater if you squint through the .alt media lens. (Corbett has some good insight here)
Many years ago, my father and mother attended a speech by Kate Adie at the Dartington Literary Festival. She talked about, among other things, censorship of the Press in countries such as China (she was at the Tiananmen Square Massacre). In the Q&A, my Dad asked her whether she thought the arrival of the Internet would herald a rise of an underground press, if governments increased interference with the media and the media owners got too far in cahoots with them. Kate dodged the question.
It’s safe to say – in an era where Blair and Cameron have high-ranking media people as godparents to their children and we see massive censorship and manipulation of information – that a new press has emerged that is now facing a two-pronged assault from the state and the old press. So my Dad – a retired journalist – was right. It’s sad that my Dad, now in his 80s, tells people he was a newspaper journalist, then apologises for it, saying he can’t bear to see what’s become of the media.
The saddest thing is that so many members of this website take Putin-media hook, line and sinker without a single question.
There’s absolutely no point reading a text which practially starts with the word Mearsheimer. The self-appointed Putin whisperer may go now.
I guess that makes you an Obama whisperer.
Katchanovski clarified that the Maidan massacre “does not justify the Russian invasion and other actions in Ukraine”.
…Inconvienient to the Russian invasion enthusiasts.
“Katchanovski clarified that the Maidan massacre “does not justify the Russian invasion and other actions in Ukraine”.
Hux, glad I took your comments onboard regarding these threads the other day, it’s a comedy of surreal humour watching from the sidelines!
Also happy to see Mark holding the fort, even tho it seems repetative from the baiters, he still manages to bring something new into it.
Bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces. You can find more if you google words: ” Ivan Katchanovski falsifier “
It does not negate the fact that bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces.
There are many available sources that prove this information.
bullets were removed from the bodies
Ivan Katchanovski is a falsifier of the Maidan massacre and contemporary history of Ukraine (ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com)
@Svyatoslav just like JFK lol
if it were true you wouldn’t have to waste your life creating hundreds of pages of nonsense impersonating Professor Katchanovski to misrepresent his views.
There are many internet sources and video about the facts that bullets were removed from the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces.
You must read the internet sources and videos about the fact that bullets were removed from the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces.
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/2019/03/twelve-automatic-rifles-of-berkut.html
No one impersonates Katchanovski and misrepresents his views.
You say that this information is not true without reading these website, the internet sources and vides that bullets were removed from the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shots from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces.
I can ask you by the same way: if the information of the Ivan Katchanovski papers were true he wouldn’t have to waste his life writing his bogus papers with lies, falsifications and misrepresentations.
Loyalty to the truth, not our leaders. Question everything. Yes, this was a false flag operation. Criminal.
I was in Russian when these events took place and so exposed to the Russian point of view. I never had any doubt that this was, a false flag, the ‘official’ explanation was that Berkut fired on unarmed protestors and then ran away which made no sense. Why should they need to run away if they had arms, and the protesters didn’t?
It amazes me that all upheavals, coups etc are called ‘far right’. Whenever I look into history I find it is the socialists who want Utopia and the Communists who want the perfect control of people who tend to create upheaval and murder. I suspect the West and particularly USA Democrats needed Ukraine for nefarious reasons. Western Governments are now predominantly left wing. Hungary alone is right wing.
Democrat Party in America has caused more upheaval and war than any other stand alone party. Democrats are leftwing. However, I believe American Globalists want to rule the world and destroy the common man. This is what Maidan was about and it signalled the beginning of bringing down Russia who stood firm for the nation and God.
‘This is what Maidan was about and it signalled the beginning of bringing down Russia who stood firm for the nation and God’
Which god do you believe Russia is following and promoting via its current mass murder and destruction in Ukraine?
Presumably not the deity / spirituality and moral code advocated by Jesus Christ, who willingly went to his own brutal death as a known consequence of his campaign against all sectarianism, hatred and violence (including that of the state and religious institutions of his own day)
An anti-violence position fully upheld by the great Russian writer Leo Tolstoy in his later life.
This is Noah’s nuttiest conspiracy theory yet. The evidence seems to be largely hearsay from people with a pro-Putin agenda.
The Berkut police officers must be glad they were tried in a fair justice system with insufficient evidence. Under a Russian justice system, regardless of guilt or innocence, they would now be either dead or serving long prison sentences.
Nut job Cocaine Import Agency bot
Similar to the story about taking down a commercial plane over Ukraine. It’s mind boggling when you get into it. Now all Europe has to suffer more, because of this crazy obsession with Russia.
Bullets were removed the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shot from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces. There are many available internet sources that prove this information. You can find more if you google words: ” Ivan Katchanovski falsifier “.
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/2019/03/twelve-automatic-rifles-of-berkut.html
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/
Bullets were removed from the bodies of murdered and wounded maidan protesters and forensic examinations found that these bullets were shot from the rifles of the Ukrainian government police and security forces. There are many available internet sources that provide this information. You can find more if you google words: ” Ivan Katchanovski falsifier “.
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/2019/03/twelve-automatic-rifles-of-berkut.html
http://ivan-katchanovski.blogspot.com/