Russia’s Muted Response to Finland’s Interest in Joining NATO Suggests its Invasion of Ukraine Was Nothing to do With NATO Expansion

If Russia's invasion of Ukraine was prompted by NATO's eastward expansion, as some Putin apologists argue, why has the official reaction to Finland's NATO application been so muted?

7 min read

After some weeks of national polling, discussion and debate, and following Wednesday’s signing of bilateral security agreements with the U.K., it now looks all-but-certain that Finland and Sweden will apply to join NATO – perhaps as early as next week – and that if they do, they will be welcomed with open arms, swelling the ranks of the alliance to 32 members.

But Finland sits directly on Russia’s western border.

Indeed, amongst European nations, Finland has the dubious distinction of possessing the second-longest land border with Russia – second only to Ukraine’s. So why hasn’t this expected eastward expansion of NATO been greeted with the same hand-wringing from those in the West, and the same threats from Russia that we’ve seen in past years with respect to Ukraine’s “provocative” ambition to join NATO?

The reason is that NATO’s eastward expansion was never viewed by Russia as an existential threat – at least not militarily. In fact, the factitious and pretextual nature of Russia’s claimed fears over Ukraine’s closer ties to NATO couldn’t be clearer: on April 8th, Dmitry Peskov repeated Russia’s long-held position that if Finland and Sweden were to join NATO, this would be a threat but not an existential threat. His remarks were repeated by RT in a clear confirmation of the official line:

Moscow opposes the expansion of NATO, but the inclusion of Finland and Sweden in the bloc won’t become an existential threat to it, Kremlin Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov told Sky News on Friday.

This is despite the fact that Finland has a large, modern and well-equipped military (soon to include F-35A “stealth” jets), is geographically very close to Russia’s second city, St. Petersburg, and has the will to defend itself – as well as something of a track record against Russia. The Finnish attitude – reminiscent of Jim Mattis – was exemplified just yesterday by Pekka Toveri, Finland’s former military intelligence chief, who said:

We just want to be left in peace – but if you f—— come over the border, you will pay the price.

It would be difficult to believe – prior to the full-scale invasion of Ukraine on February 24th, at least – that Russia viewed the Finnish armed forces as anything less than the most potent military force on its western border. So why is Finnish NATO membership not the threat that Ukraine’s accession to the alliance would supposedly be?

The reasons are (in no particular order) historical, demographic, cultural, financial and political. But when talking of Ukraine in this context, it should be noted that much of these observations would apply equally to Georgia, whose developing ties with NATO are of similar concern to Russia.

Historically, Ukraine (as well as Georgia and the Baltic states) was of course governed from Moscow as part of the USSR, the collapse of which Putin rues:

Above all, we should acknowledge that the collapse of the Soviet Union was a major geopolitical disaster of the century. As for the Russian nation, it became a genuine drama. Tens of millions of our co-citizens and co-patriots found themselves outside Russian territory. Moreover, the epidemic of disintegration infected Russia itself.

It’s clear from Putin’s words and actions, first in Georgia in 2008, and later in Ukraine in 2014, that he follows an irredentist policy which is tied to, and in his mind justified by, the concept of ‘ethnic Russian’ identity. The tactics employed – of claiming ‘ethnic Russians’ are under threat or attack by the governments of those nations in which they find themselves – mirror precisely the tactics employed by Nazi Germany in respect of the Sudetenland, Gdansk, and so on. As with Nazi Germany, these claims have been reinforced by a stated desire to protect shared culture and traditions, and in this case the sense that Russian culture is under direct assault from Western liberal values. But what really animates this line of thinking is the demographic crisis in Russia.

Much like the rest of Europe, Russia has been facing declining birth rates amongst its core ethnic population, and a relative increase in its other ethnic minority populations, notably Muslims. It has sought to compensate for this by importing ‘ethnic Russians’ from other former USSR states. And since the invasion, forced transportation of Ukrainians to Russia has been in the news, with some as-yet-unsubstantiated claims putting the figure in the hundreds of thousands or even above a million.

The other key reasons for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine are financial and political. A successful invasion of Ukraine would have left Putin in a much stronger – practically unassailable – political position, giving him control of a client state and effectively expanding Russia’s territory and overall economic (and military) power – a war of conquest. But there are undoubtedly more personal financial motivations, having to do with the workings of the Russian state and its thoroughly kleptocratic and corrupt nature. Control of the Ukrainian economy might enable Putin to buy an even bigger palace and another superyacht, but it would also be a chance to reward his cronies and further cement his position as dictator-for-life.

With this in mind, Ukraine has the twin advantages for Russia of being both rife with corruption (as mocked in Servant of the People) and possessing important industries and vast natural gas reserves (including the large Yuzivska gas field, discovered in 2010) – as well as being a major global player in agriculture. In the Yanukovych era, the pro-Russian faction was busily co-opting natural resources, aping Putin’s Russia, and was well on the way to turning the country into an entrenched kleptocracy. Had Yanukovych not lost power and ignominiously fled Ukraine in 2014, the ‘need’ for Russia to invade would have been absent: control of Ukraine’s economy would have been enough for the short term, and in due course Russia’s political domination would have turned it into another Belarus.

These motives for the Russian invasion of Ukraine could never remotely translate to Finland, which was never part of the USSR and whose ‘ethnic Russian’ population is tiny. In addition, Finland’s economy would have provided Russia with no easy opportunities for looting and plunder, besides which its polity is already infused with those ‘Western’ values that Putin so despises, making it much more difficult to corrupt. In sum, Russia can’t keep Finland in its orbit, because Finland was never in it. Thus, Finland joining NATO poses no ‘existential threat’ to Russia, so it has done the diplomatic equivalent of shrugging its shoulders, sending out its spokesman with some tired and weak threats.

Of course there is a military dimension to this, in that a NATO presence in Ukraine would have permanently prevented Russia from invading, but it was Ukraine’s rejection of Russian domination, its increasingly closer ties with Western liberal democracies, its keenness to adopt Western values and to be part of ‘the West’ that offended Russia and threatened its goal of imposing a corrupt, anti-democratic and pro-Russian ethno-nationalist regime on the country. But the threat was not primarily a military one, it was rather a matter of values – such as they are, in Russia’s tortured soul.

The ‘NATO provocation’ explanation of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was always weak. Besides any other considerations, one can simply look at the current map of NATO member states: Latvia and Estonia, both member states, also border Russia. And NATO has no intention of attacking Russia – that would be mad, and not since Bertrand Russell has anyone seriously proposed a first strike. But to be fair, proponents of this hypothesis, such as John Mearsheimer, are aware that it doesn’t make much sense in the West, so they fall back upon a reduced hypothesis, saying it’s “irrelevant” whether it seems rational to us, so long as Russia believes that NATO’s expansion towards its borders is an existential threat.

That might be a valid theoretical consideration, but it’s lazy and serves only to disguise Russia’s true motivations, which are not militarily defensive, but defensive on an ethno-nationalistic level: Russia fears its own decline, and sees the more ‘modern’ Western values as corrosive – a view shared, incidentally, by many conservatives in the West. This is why Russia objected just as much to EU influence in Ukraine, despite the EU having neither an army per se, nor a collective defence treaty. In fact, a cynic might say that this is as much a war about gay rights as anything else; but that would have about as much merit as the ‘NATO expansionism’ argument. The truth is that this war concerns the sovereignty and self-determination of a nation state: a core and immutable Western value, older than the Treaty of Westphalia, that flows from the Christian belief in individual sovereignty. Finding reasons to agree with Putin’s excuses, while glossing over the true causes of his war, is like volunteering to polish the gold toilet-paper holder on his yacht.

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319 Comments
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Stephensceptic
Stephensceptic
4 years ago

Gosh. What a biased article.

Yet another attempt to link Putin with Hitler.

If you listen to his speech that launched the SMO then he lauds the multi national composition of Russia. Note that the Chechens are some of the most enthusiastic soldiers for Russia. They are not ethnic Russians. I do not think that ethno Russian nationalism is a big driver here.

The premise of the article is also wrong: the Russians have warned NATO over Finland. They just do it clearly and western media propaganda does not then amplify it.

I recommend listening to John Mearsheimer for an exposition of why NATO expansion has been seen as an existential threat by Russia and the two decades or so of warnings to that effect.

Ignasz Semmelweisz
Ignasz Semmelweisz
4 years ago

Someone in the daily sceptic is good friends with Alex Berenson. There is the same split between Covid and Ukraine here as there.

Mearsheimer, Cohen, Ritter, anyone?

Zero evidence Putin is going anywhere beyond Ukraine unless the US hegemony runs the same MO in Georgia or another border nation.

US bioweapons labs (336 in 30 countries) that the UN claims not to know about. Unanswered questions about Slavic-targeted pathogens in these labs. Dilyana Gaytandzhieva exposed biolabs in 2015 in the EU to the US representative and was closed down. See armswatch and her named big. Add all the stuff Russia had submitted direct to UNSC.

Nazis in Ukraine are undeniable. So are Ukrainian war crimes as they literally film themselves doing them. Just scour southfront and telegram. You will find multiple videos of torture and murder of RussianPoWs including one where a tied up Russian PoW is stabbed to death including in the eyes; a Russian soldier may have been crucified; that’s not all of it.

See Patrick Lancaster for first hand testimony from citizens in the DPR of long term Ukrainian attacks against civilians. Ukraine is using Syrian”rebel” human shield tactics, according to citizen testimony and tons of footage… Read more »

Monro
Monro
4 years ago

For all those who believe Putin’s invasion of Ukraine was a response to ‘NATO expansionism’ and US imperialism, I recommend reading an excellent article by Putin himself in his own newspaper, RIA Novosti 04 April 22

‘The “Catholic province” (Western Ukraine as part of five regions) is unlikely to become part of the pro-Russian territories. The line of alienation, however, will be found empirically. It will remain hostile to Russia, but forcibly neutral and demilitarized Ukraine with formally banned Na$ism. The haters of Russia will go there. The threat of an immediate continuation of the military operation in case of non-compliance with the listed requirements will be the the guarantee of the preservation of this residual Ukraine in a neutral state. Perhaps this will require a permanent Russian military presence on its territory.’

‘the necessary initial steps of dena$ification can be defined as follows:
— liquidation of armed Na$i formations (which refers to any armed formations of Ukraine, including the Armed Forces of Ukraine), as well as the military, information, and educational infrastructure that ensures their activity’

‘…lustration, publication of the names of accomplices of the Na$i regime, involving them in forced labor to restore the destroyed infrastructure as punishment… Read more »

Ger
Ger
4 years ago

For those of us who still think that the war has no history, but for that bastard Putin’s lust for power, I recommend reading an excellent article by Mike Whitney in the “UNZ Review” of 10May titled: “Russia started the war” and other fallacies>.

Ger
Ger
4 years ago

Shame on you, Daily Sceptic, to allow such a falsely wrought article on your pages. No effort to mention the true causes of the war, which are by now easy to be found on the internet. Not in the Mainstream Media however. Simply this bastard of a Putin again hé, as if a lot of developments before the 24Feb and since 2014, did not happen. Shame on you, Daily Sceptic.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago

The whole world knows why Russia invaded Ukraine; nothing to do with NATO.

Putin took the trouble to publish his reasons in RIA Novosti

He wants to ‘de-Europeanise’ Ukraine and get rid of ‘Western totalitarianism’

RIA Novosti 04 April 22

adamcollyer
adamcollyer
4 years ago

You accuse Mearsheimer of “lazy thinking”. Seems to me you are guilty of that yourself, Ian. “Sovereignty and self determination of a nation state”? When was Ukraine ever a state? For two years during the War? Ukraine was established as a Soviet Republic, as part of the USSR. This is a fact that Western commentators seem determined to ignore, in their desperation to make the whole situation a simple case of “goodies” (us) versus “baddies” (evil Putin and his henchmen).

You think Ukraine is a plucky Western style democracy? Go and look up what Zelensky has done to his political opponents. I say this not to criticise him, just to challenge the idea that he is a democratic leader in the Western sense.

As for “more modern Western values”, I think we’ve seen over the last two years how shallow are Western claims to be democratic and freedom loving. We are in a fight now to save liberal democracy in the West. Right now democracy in Britain is looking little more solid than democracy in Russia.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago
Reply to  adamcollyer

‘When was Ukraine ever a state?’

It was Russia that turned Ukraine into a state:

Kievan Rus’, a medieval state, came into existence in the 9th century and was centred around present-day Kiev.

‘A distinct Ukrainian language began to emerge in the dying days of the Kievan Rus’

Following the incorporation of present-day Ukraine into Poland-Lithuania, the Ukrainian language evolved in relative isolation from the Russian language.

At the same time, religious divisions developed within Eastern Orthodoxy. From the mid-15th to the late 17th centuries, the Orthodox Churches in Moscow and in Kiev developed as separate entities

Following the final partitions of Poland in the 1790s, the Russian Empire absorbed the remainder of modern-day Ukraine (apart from its extreme west, which was annexed by Austria).

The territories of Ukraine remained a part of the Russian state for the next 120 years.

Russia’s imperial authorities systematically persecuted expressions of Ukrainian culture and made continuous attempts to suppress the Ukrainian language.

In spite of this, a distinct Ukrainian national consciousness emerged and consolidated in the course of the 19th century

The eastern borders of Ukraine were formally drawn in 1919-1924 as the boundaries of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic (UkrSSR).

….intervention in Ukraine…..has galvanised… Read more »

TripleJabbed
TripleJabbed
4 years ago
Reply to  adamcollyer

Ukraine became a state on February 24th, when Russia invaded and the President of Ukraine didn’t run away and the people fought to defend it. Sovereignty comes from the people, and the Ukrainian demos clearly showed that they have given it to Ukraine, not the Russian Federation.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago

Brilliant article. Many thanks.

Totalitarian dictator and plutocrat invades neighbouring nascent aspirational capitalist democracy in order to, firstly, enrich himself and, secondly, to remove the political threat it poses to his criminal authoritarianism.

Also hilarious to see the indignation from the burghers of St Petersburg and their running mates.

Smudger
Smudger
4 years ago

Would the USA tolerate China or Russia training a Central American states forces or funding secret bilogical labs in those countries? Isn’t the Monroe docrine in place to prohibit such a presence of a foreign power in their backyard?

Monro
Monro
4 years ago
Reply to  Smudger

Why do you ask?

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago

Putin is a disciple of Ivan Ilyin and his doctrine of Christian fascism and Russian destiny. The resemblance to Hitler is no coincidence, since they share a very similar belief in national spiritual destiny. Anyone supporting Putin is, consciously or otherwise, supporting this doctrine.

Pilla
Pilla
4 years ago

That Sweden and Finland joining NATO doesn’t pose an existential threat to Russia doesn’t quite fit with what Mr Polyanskiy said in a good interview with Freddie Sayers of Unherd: ‘Speaking to UnHerd’s Freddie Sayers, First Deputy Representative of Russia to the UN Dmitry Polyanskiy has said that Sweden and Finland joining the bloc would turn them overnight from neutral into enemy countries and become a “target” for Russia.’

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Pilla

They’ve been subject to constant Russian pressure and threats for decades anyway.

As part of NATO they become just one of 32 targets.

Putin is aggressive – but he isn’t stupid.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago
Reply to  Pilla

So Russia poses an existential threat to Finland and Sweden?

Wasn’t that why they decided to join NATO?

actually sceptic
actually sceptic
4 years ago
Reply to  Pilla

The fact that Russia may consider them as enemies does not make them a threat.

crosspot2
crosspot2
4 years ago

No one in the world* ever believed the ‘Putin feels threatened by NATO’ narrative anyway, least of all Putin himself. (*Though many claimed to).
It’s just a bonkers post-truth ritual. We know he’s lying, he knows we know he’s lying, we know he knows we know he’s lying and he knows we know he knows we know he’s lying.

actually sceptic
actually sceptic
4 years ago
Reply to  crosspot2

Most “sceptics” do believe him.
But that’s only to disagree with the accepted reality. They do this for most subjects.

Covid-1984
Covid-1984
4 years ago

Never underestimate Russia. Unlike Hitler they know not to fight wars on two fronts. They’ll mop up objectives in Ukraine (100% air superiority) then deal with secondary threats.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago
Reply to  Covid-1984

That’s what we all thought.

I wonder why it is taking so long?

How come the air superiority isn’t protecting their river crossings, or their Generals, or is it just Putin shooting them?

marebobowl
marebobowl
4 years ago

Odd, we thought the growing pressure to place nato forces on Russia’s border was part of what drove the “bad guy” actor into action. Meanwhile the comedienne in Ukrainia, dressed in his khaki green clothing was preparing for his part in the proxy war.

anyone read about the shortage of baby formula in the USA? They or someone is burning down food processing plant ta faster than they can be rebuilt creating a man made food shortage. Amazing how the msm has failed to report the destruction of food processing plants. All part of the great reset folks. There are no food shortages in the world. There are distribution problems and now man made shortages.

Matt Mounsey
Matt Mounsey
4 years ago

Well, if we get a “silent but violent” EMP attack that wipes out all of our critical infrastructure, energy and food supply then maybe we can debate whether it was because of Finland’s NATO expansion. “Hmm, maybe Putin did care about Finland joining NATO but he stopped making a fuss about it and just pushed the button? Or hmm, maybe not.”

Seriously, folks we have to take care of the war hawks in our countries. They are on a suicide mission. Our leaders pushed and pushed Putin to the brink and he snapped and now they just keep on ramping it up. They desperately want to depopulate the earth to avoid the inevitable economic collapse and it doesn’t have to involve nukes. They tried the virus and the vaccine and it didn’t work. Now they’re going to try something drastic.

If we don’t do something we’re just living on borrowed time.

Hugh
Hugh
4 years ago
Reply to  Matt Mounsey

And good morning to you too!

Draper233
Draper233
4 years ago

Wow, what an utterly arrogant and blinkered article.

It’s amazing that people like Ian Rons still bang on about “Western values” when we’ve seen the biggest peacetime attack on them over the last two years by our own so called “leaders” who, I can assure you, care less for their citizens than Putin does for Russians.

And to completely omit the fact that the West, obviously the US in particular, continuously gets involved in foreign affairs based on its own interests (as it has been doing in Ukraine for years), must surely be deliberate as the writer can’t be that ignorant?

As Rand Paul said a few days ago – the biggest source of disinformation over the last 50 years? The US Government.

Rons can virtue signal with his West good, Putin/Russia bad rhetoric if it makes him feel better, but it is the likes of him that are actually supporting the destruction of liberty and democracy in this country.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

Why are we only allowed one upvote?

……who, I can assure you, care less for their citizens than Putin does for Russians.

The single most accurate sentence on this entire thread.

FlattenTheCurve
FlattenTheCurve
4 years ago

Pseud nonsense, I’m afraid. Firstly, Finland and Sweden are far too established as democracies to be egged on into conflict by the wider west in the way that a weakly institutioned Ukraine allows itself. Here are two countries with no significant Russian influence that very much do not belong to the Russian sphere of influence. Their joining NATO is symbolic rather that geostrategically significant…unlike Ukraine.

Secondly, characterising Putin is an ethno nationalist is well wide of the mark. Navalny is Russia’s ethno nationalist. Putin has historically shown himself to favour a Russia that co-identifies along broad shared cultural values regardless of ethnicity.

Attack Putin for his many foibles but don’t either deliberately or ignorantly compare him to ethno nationalists with such spurious arguments.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago

Agreed. Sweden and Finland curiously agreeing to be drawn into a conflict they have no interest in.

To my knowledge, Russia hasn’t been a threat to them in generations, nor does it appear to be now.

I can’t fathom this particular turn of events. What purpose does it serve?

FlattenTheCurve
FlattenTheCurve
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

I can’t pretend to know but my assumption would be that it is a risk-free yet highly symbolic initiative designed to facilitate reductive articles such as this one that assert hypocrisy and perhaps even convince the feeble minded.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Agreed … totally illogical…pressure from the Globalists at the WEF …and the CIA?

Hoe many “young leaders ” groomed by Uncle Klaus are involved ?

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

Funnily enough, you could ask Putin that as he was a Young Global Leader candidate but evidently didn’t ‘graduate”

Funnily enough, nor did Boris.

The opinion of some was that neither conformed to Schwab’s conditioning and were a pain in the arse.

Others contend that Putin pitched up just to see what was going on and, being ex KGB, took away a whole lot of stuff they hadn’t even considered.

Putin is, by many accounts, the smartest guy walking into any room. Having seen many of his translated interviews he comes across as a pretty honest guy.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Probably you would have to live in Finland or Sweden to understand it.

Their sentiments seem strikingly similar to those of the Baltic States.

So, just maybe, they really do know something that should have been obvious to the rest of us.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago

Why, then, did Putin rattle on about ‘Greater Russia’ prior to invading?

Star
Star
4 years ago

According to the Guardian, Vladimir Putin “only has himself to blame” for NATO’s supposedly imminent expansion that may well never happen. Funny how the whole British media is singing to the same songbook. It almost makes you think Britain is a “one songbook state”.

Anyway, did Stalin only have himself to blame for NATO’s 1952 expansion (Greece, Turkey)?
How about Khrushchev for the 1955 expansion (Federal Republic of Germany)?
Or Brezhnev for the 1982 expansion (Spain)?
Or Yeltsin for the 1999 expansion (Czechia, Hungary, Poland)?

Has there ever been a country that has become a US satellite without the Kremlin being to blame? Does anyone in the British mainstream media dare answer “yes”?

For those who don’t know already: the Warsaw Treaty Organisation (“Warsaw Pact” in headlinese) was founded six years after NATO, shortly after NATO expanded to include the Federal Republic of Germany as a member in 1955.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Insightful comment.

jsacouto
jsacouto
4 years ago

Does this argument sound quite ridiculous or am I missing something here?
Control of the Ukrainian economy might enable Putin to buy an even bigger palace and another superyacht, but it would also be a chance to reward his cronies and further cement his position as dictator-for-life.

Star
Star
4 years ago

NATO member Turkey has objected to the Finnish and Swedish applications to join.
NATO expansion has to be agreed by all members.
Whoops!

https://www.ft.com/content/e7d3e505-279c-45d7-8585-1d1354926571

Apparently the Turkish government is especially negative about the idea of an application from Sweden.

Oh dear oh dear. The Wallenberg family that owns Sweden can’t have its cake (sell weapons to the Kurdish opponents of the Turkish government) and eat it (be in a military “alliance” under the United States alongside that same Turkish government).

Hungary is in NATO too. Have they said yet that they would accept Finland and Sweden as members, or will a Hungarian objection be forthcoming?

It’s also hard to see how French president Macron would successfully sell the French population a war against Russia. The left-wing alliance led by Jean-Luc Mélenchon is leading in the polls for the legislative elections scheduled for next month.

Perhaps by next Friday it will be a case of “Finland and Sweden have not said they want to join NATO. They have never said that. They have always said they want to remain neutral. Any assertion to the contrary is made by Russian-paid trolls.“

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

Good news.

NATO slapped in the face. Not before time.

Monro
Monro
4 years ago
Reply to  Star

It’s a negotiating ploy.

ebygum
ebygum
4 years ago

“Ukrainian authorities have stopped the flow of Russian natural gas through one key hub that feeds European homes and industries.”
so are they finally ‘biting the hand that feeds them’ or just trying to cause the economic collapse of Europe? Hope Europe appreciates it…..

RW
RW
4 years ago

The concept of a nation state, as opposed to a dynastic state, ie a conglomerate of territories inhabited by different people all subject to some ruling dynasty, didn’t even exist prior to the Napoleonic wars and self-determination of the peoples was something Woodrow Wilson invented for his so-called world war one peace plan.

Russia seized Finland from Sweden in 1809 and ruled it until 1917, including trying to russify it. It re-captured 12% of the Finnish territority during a series of Russian-Finnish wars which occurred in the context of the second world war. Finland remained closely aligned with the USSR until its collapse.

As a final remark, sharing some of the values Putin claims to have doesn’t imply a desire to be ruled by him. Enemies of my enemies are only my friends if they join me in fighting them.

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

And if you go back a bit further, Sweden under Charles XII embarked on a war of conquest against Russia which was only checked by Charles’s bad luck at Poltava in 1709. However, even after that and a period of exile in the Ottoman Empire, he was still keen on war and somebody may have had him assassinated in 1715 (a death which finally brought peace).

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago

If it’s not blatantly obvious to everyone that the UK, the US and Europe are deliberately provoking a confrontation with Russia by courting Sweden and Finland’s membership of NATO, you should be locked up for your own, and everyone else’s safety.

The Americans have admitted they are conducting a war with Russia by proxy. Are these people insane? Russia and the US are the two most powerful nuclear nations on the planet, yet NATO countries think it clever to provoke Russia when the situation in Ukraine is already sensitive.

Putin’s armed forces have access to some 2,000,000 personnel. He sent 150,000 into Ukraine. Clearly he does not want to occupy the country.

In the same way the west demanded regime change in Iraq, he wants regime change in a rouge nation bordering his. As with Crimea, once that objective is achieved, he’ll leave.

The vast majority of the worlds population, represented by responsible leaders, Including China, India (the largest democracy in the world), Africa and Latin America, amongst others, have refused to condemn Russia’s intervention in a humanitarian catastrophe, the ethnic cleansing of Russian communities in Donbas by Ukraine.

The US, the UK and Europe are without a doubt the… Read more »

Steve-Devon
Steve-Devon
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

‘cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war’ it does seem that some in the Western world have some sort of demented madcap desire to provoke and prolong this conflict. Many food experts are saying that it is only the relative stability of the Rice market that is preventing a full world food crisis. But even now the price and supply difficulties with fertiliser look like leading to a 10-15% drop in the World rice harvest. It would only take one of the major rice exporters like Vietnam to stop rice exports or for China to stockpile even more Rice and the world food crisis would get a whole lot worse. Prolonging and aggravating this war could lead to a sequence of events that brings on such a food catastrophe.

ebygum
ebygum
4 years ago
Reply to  Steve-Devon

Why would they care? The western backed Saudi led attacks on Yemen have caused hundreds and thousands of deaths, …the USA and UK sanctions have led to what the UN has called ‘the largest humanitarian crisis in the world’..a Yemeni child dies every nine minutes….the USA have imposed further sanctions this year….

Every Single ‘food programme’ and charity from the UN, Oxfam, the World Food Programme…every single one has clearly stated that the sanctions imposed by the West will cause the deaths by starvation of hundreds of millions of people on a scale never seen before…

But the goal, as has been explained by the USA is to ‘weaken Russia’, at the expense of Ukraine, and the rest of the world it would seem.

unpopular
unpopular
4 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

Perhaps your friends the Russians will remove the blockade in the black sea to allow export of grain from Ukraine. Since they are the good guys, this is a must do thing.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

Hmmmmmm…..

Let’s think for a moment.

Human lives? – food blockade?

Food blockade? – human lives?

Gee, that’s a toughy.

Don’t give me any bleeding heart BS about global famines and millions dying. The UK had to suffer a World War before there was food rationing. The world has been producing far more food than it needs for generations now. This is a war in a tiny corner of Europe, made a crisis only to demonise Russia.

Had it not been for Biden/NATO’s bombastic posturing none of this would ever have happened.

Read my post, Putin didn’t start this war, Ukraine did by targeting Donbass Russians for genocide.

Feel good about Rwanda do you? I was one calling for intervention while you didn’t even know a million people were being slaughtered.

Asleep then and asleep now.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

UN, Oxfam, the World Food Programme

NGO’s on the happy clappy charity bandwagon.

“There’s an impending famine, we need more money”.

Sick of these shysters.

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Think of the salaries of David Milliband and of Stephen Kinnock’s wife at Save the Children.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Londo Mollari

OMGosh, I completely forgot. I retract it all.

RW
RW
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

The Americans have admitted they are conducting a war with Russia by proxy.

Since yesterday, I’ve spent some time thinking through this: For some country to act as proxy of some great power in a war, that country must be doing something the great power would want to do as well but prefers to avoid to avoid getting entangled in the war itself.

Assuming the country is in the strategic offensive (ie, the attacker), it can be acting as proxy of some great power if it attacked an enemy of said great power or someone who’s allied to that enemy.

A country in the strategic defensive (the defender) cannot act as proxy of a great power because the great power cannot be in the strategic defensive in lieu of the attacked country. All it could do is invade the attacked country in order to attack the attacker there, which would be place it in the strategic offensive. The defending country also cannot defend itself against the attacker in lieu of the great power because the great power hasn’t been attacked and hence, can’t be defending itself. It might want to defend itself against the same attacker the other country… Read more »

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  RW

Since yesterday, I’ve spent some time thinking 

I’ve warned you about that before. You’ll do yourself a mischief.

You tried all this bullshit with Mark yesterday. I’m not going to bother repeating the kicking you got from him about your bizarre logic.

Ukraine has been waging war on Donbas for the last eight years contrary to the Budapest Accord.

They dropped 5,000 artillery shells on Donbass in the seven days before Russia intervened. Russia had 150,000 troops amassed on the border while that was going on.

It was clearly to provoke Russia to intervene, which they did.

Western media utterly ignored the last eight years and the concentrated shelling, then blamed Putin for legally invoking UN Article 51 which gives him the right to come to the aid of ANY UN member enduring violence.

Donbass is in Ukraine but to ignore the planned genocide would be as bad as the west turning a blind eye to a million people being slaughtered in Rwanda.

Putin’s intentions may not be entirely altruistic, but he stopped a terrible atrocity from occurring.

Condemn him and you are functional in supporting genocide.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

They dropped 5,000 artillery shells on Donbass in the seven days before Russia intervened.

Did you count them?

Russia had 150,000 troops amassed on the border while that was going on.

Of course, that’s why Ukraine choose this moment.

Putin’s intentions may not be entirely altruistic,

Ah-hah! The detective in you comes to the fore at last.

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Go back to January of 202 and Elensky issued directives for offensive action, including against the Crimea.

Crimea has never been anything but Russian since before the USA came into existence, save by some bizarre pen stroke of Nikita Kruschev in 1954. Crimea, by the way, was also the victim of a war crime by virtue of its water supply being cut off by the fascists in Kiev. The blowing up of the dam which was blocking the North Crimea Canal was carried out within a few days of the liberation of Country 404 beginning.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Did you count them?

Yes, it’s a matter of international record. Read my post’s, one of them lays out the numbers day by day. Satellites don’t miss a shot, but our media does, deliberately and you exist on their lies.

The information is there, but they didn’t tell you. Have you been lied to and hoodwinked?

Why, yes you have.

Of course, that’s why Ukraine choose this moment.

Russian troops, present on the border between Russia and Ukraine (Donbas), threatening to invade unless hostilities cease in the region, and Ukrainians provoke invasion by lobbing 5,000 rounds of ordnance into Donbas.

That’s not the way geopolitical diplomacy is conducted you tit. That’s called incitement to violence and it’s covered under UN Article 51. Russia, like the rest of the UN, is compelled to respond to protect civilians, only the west didn’t bother, again, did they?

Doubtless, had Putin stepped into Rwanda to stop the butcher of a million lives you would be squealing “Russian man bad” then as well, and wept when the genocide failed.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Read my post’s, one of them lays out the numbers day by day

But that would require you to count all the way up to 5k!

Surely a bridge too far for you, LukeWarm.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

I used paper and pencil dummy. Obviously technology beyond you.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

And not a single point I made addressed. You really are a sad sack.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

It’s pure bigotry from first to last. There isn’t time enough in the world to spend on correcting your ignorance.

I don’t agree much with Noah Carl. But at least he manages to string a sentence together and is capable of a proper conversation about it,

unpopular
unpopular
4 years ago
Reply to  RedhotScot

Russia has nothing to fear from NATO, Finland or Sweden, unless it decides to attack.

Your acceptance of Russia’s propaganda without question is puzzling. I thought you were supposed to be sceptical.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

The NATO backed Ukraine has waged a war of ethnic cleansing against Donbas for the last eight years. The US has admitted they back Ukraine in a proxy war against Russia.

I don’t understand why this doesn’t compute in your tiny mind.

It’s genocide you clown. Ukraine bombarded Donbass with 5,000 artillery shells in the seven days prior to Russia’s intervention.

Are you happy with that level of aggression even in what might be described as a civil war?

It was clearly an act of provocation as Russia had 150,000 troops on the border at the time.

You must be a special kind of thick not to see this or in any way condone Ukraines genocidal intentions.

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

Russia has nothing to fear from NATO, Finland or Sweden, unless it decides to attack.

There is very little empirical evidence to support your contention.

NATO and its ancillaries has been on an offensive rampage since the 1990s, beginning with the former Yugoslavia carrying on through Iraq and Libya. It was defeated in Syria and is about to go down big time in Ukraine.

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago

Peskov is right. Finland has never been an existential threat to Russia, whether in or out of NATO.

But Russia has been an existential threat to Finland. Having been forced by the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk to allow Finland to become independent from Russia in 1917-18 they’ve had eyes on taking it back. They invaded and carved off 10% of Finland within living memory.

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

So, what threat has the USSR and then Russia posed towards Finland since the signing of the Treaty of Paris in 1947?

No more threat than USSR/Russia has posed towards Austria since the signing of the Austrian neutrality treaty in 1955.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

Dear god. You drag up a Treaty from over 100 years ago when the biggest threat to the world was the first battlefield Tank.

Go and lie down.

dearieme
dearieme
4 years ago

“he follows an irredentist policy which is tied to, and in his mind justified by, the concept of ‘ethnic Russian’ identity”: reminiscent of the antics of the Irish Republic, then. 

Star
Star
4 years ago

“…in Servant of the People…”

…which was made in the Russian language.

AxelStone
AxelStone
4 years ago

Muted response? You mean they havent been immediately invaded? Russia and Ukraine has been brewing for over a decade. This move by Finland and Sweden will similarly start something cooking. Btw https://unherd.com/thepost/putin-spokesman/

This article also mentions history but fails to reference how Finland particularly, since ww2, has purposefully balanced Russian and Western alignment in a very deliberate way. Just look at arms purchases, for one.

lordsnooty
lordsnooty
4 years ago

of course it is a threat, NATO is hostile to Russia, that is it’s purpose.

ebygum
ebygum
4 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

Liz Truss’s Mansion House speech at easter was considered by many of the MSM commentators as ‘confrontational’… it included….

We also reject the false choice between Euro-Atlantic security and Indo-Pacific security. In the modern world we need both.
We need a global NATO. By that I don’t mean extending the membership to those from other regions. I mean that NATO must have a global outlook, ready to tackle global threats.…..We are showing that economic access is no longer a given. It has to be earned.
Countries must play by the rules. And that includes China.

sounds like a threat to me…

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  ebygum

“Truss” words fail!

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

Russia seriously considered joining NATO in the 1990s, so how does that NATO ‘purpose’ suit that?

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

NATO rejecting Russian membership confirmed that it is a threat. Thank you for pointing this out.

unpopular
unpopular
4 years ago
Reply to  lordsnooty

NATO is there to defend against Russia.

Obviously your rationale that the defender is to blame drives your opinion.

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  unpopular

How many countries has Russia invaded since 1991?

None.

NATO countries on the other hand . . .

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago

First class article. At last, a view of Ukraine with a firm handle on reality.

Not enough attention has been given to the financial benefit side of the equation. Putin is possibly the wealthiest man in the world. You need whole countries to fund that kind of lifestyle.

ebygum
ebygum
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

UK to send a FURTHER 1.3 billion pounds to Ukraine….
EU have already sent over 6 billion pounds to Ukraine, and more promised
the USA has sent over 13.6 billion and more promised…..
having read the Pandora Papers I suspect Zelenskyy will be able to add a great deal more to his property portfolio…LOL!

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

What’s the financial benefit to the British people? Where’s my share?

Londo Mollari
Londo Mollari
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

It’s a big club and you ain’t in it.

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

It’s as confused as your mental condition Fingers.

JXB
JXB
4 years ago

Suggests. Could. Might. Maybe. The weasel word parade meant to imply knowledge where ignorance reigns.

What would the point of Russia saying anything? Who would take any notice?

But it does serve to make Russia’s point about NATO expansionist plans along its borders, and reinforces the importance of Russia making a stand in Ukraine.

it is also extremely dangerous. Britain got dragged into every war in Europe because of ‘bilateral security agreements’, although curiously the ‘bilateral’ bit has never operated in Britain’s direction, it’s always been British citizens dying and suffering, and British treasure spent saving some other party in the local spats among each other that Continentals are so good at.

Take a look at how Britain got dragged into WWI via a convoluted trail of treaties over issues which had nothing do with British interests.

Write out 10 million times: Ukraine is none of our business.

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  JXB

“Ukraine is none of our business.”

Your opinion, but not true.

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