Just Say No, Prime Minister

This is a pivotal moment. If Boris holds his nerve, refuses to impose any further restrictions and the Omicron outbreak burns itself out of its own accord, the spell cast by SAGE over the nation could finally be broken.

5 min read

This feels like a pivotal moment.

Boris could listen to the doom-mongers urging him to impose tighter rules after Christmas, just as Nicola Sturgeon and Mark Drakeford have done. The modelling team at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine predicts the number of daily Covid hospital admissions will rise to 7,190 in January, but that’s far from the most apocalyptic scenario. Not to be outdone, Neil Ferguson and his team at Imperial College have estimated that Covid deaths are likely to rise to 5,000 a day without further restrictions. Hardly surprising, given the virus’s “exponential growth”. According to the Prime Minister’s scientific advisors, the number of daily Omicron infections is doubling every two-to-three days. Or is it every two days? Or every one-and-a-half days? They’re certainly growing very, very quickly. And it isn’t just Chris Whitty screaming in Boris’s ear demanding he do something – anything! – to stop this tidal wave engulfing our beloved NHS. Health Secretary Sajid Javid told Parliament earlier this month that the number of new cases could exceed one million a day by the end of December. That’s in a week’s time. Crikey Moses!

Or Boris could look at the actual data, as several members of his Cabinet have been urging him to do. The data from South Africa suggesting Omicron is 80% milder than Delta. The data suggesting that, far from doubling every couple of days, the number of daily infections is plateauing. The data suggesting that, for whatever reason, the link between Covid infections and hospitalisations has been broken, with Covid hospital admissions remaining largely flat over the past two weeks in spite of the uptick in daily infections. The data on the length of time Omicron patients stay in hospital, with one South African study showing the average hospital stay had been reduced from 8.5 days to 2.8 days. The data – endlessly reproduced on this site – showing that non-pharmaceutical interventions do little or nothing to suppress Covid infections, with every wave following exactly the same trajectory, regardless of the severity of the restrictions, or whether any containment measures are imposed at all.

The reason this is such a momentous decision is because it will set the pattern for every subsequent response of the Government to the emergence of a new variant, of which there will be many. If Boris can hold his nerve over the next week or so and the Omicron fire shows signs of burning itself out without the need for any further measures, that will leave the gloomsters of SAGE looking very silly indeed. It will be obvious to everyone, even the most fanatical lockdown zealot, that they’ve been crying wolf. It might even permanently break the spell they’ve cast over the nation for the past 22 months.

But if Boris capitulates and imposes ‘Plan C’ – or whatever name he gives to another hodge podge of non-sensical, incomprehensible, completely pointless restrictions – and the Omicron plague fizzles out, Neil Ferguson et al will say, “See! We’ve saved the day once again. Just as well you listened to us, Prime Minister.”

On every previous occasion when Boris has been faced with a decision like this – should we lock down to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed by Covid patients? – he has capitulated. True, he didn’t listen to the crystal-ball gazers who prophesied armageddon if he lifted all restrictions on ‘Freedom Day’, but that was a different scenario and an easier decision because his scientific advisors and their outriders in the media hadn’t hit the panic button with quite the same shrill intensity as they have in the past couple of weeks.

But I’m more optimistic that this time he will hold firm, not least because senior members of the Cabinet are actually poring over real-world data for the first time instead of just reading SAGE’s memos. And even though the chorus of lockdown enthusiasts in the mainstream media is still in fine voice, the number of dissenters is growing by the day and includes a lot of people who’ve been keen on previous lockdowns, such as Christopher Snowdon, Dan Hodges and Tom Harwood. Even Owen Jones is now a lockdown sceptic! And the polls suggest the public is genuinely split over the merits of further restrictions – even leaning against for the first time. Are the people awakening from their slumber at last?

I hardly dare say it, but it feels like the tide is beginning to turn – that the points we lockdown sceptics have been making for the best part of two years are finally beginning to land. For what it’s worth, this site had 108,597 page views yesterday, the second highest it’s ever had and more than double the day before. Stick that in your “exponential growth” pipe, Professor Whitty.

Maybe I’m wrong to hope. God knows, it wouldn’t be the first time Boris has let us down. But this feels like one of those moments when the political plates suddenly start to shift. So keep the pressure up, dear readers. Write to your MPs, sign petitions, debunk irrational nonsense in the media with your incisive comments below the line, tell the triple-jabbed hysterics in your peer group flapping about ‘risky behaviour’ to belt up. Push hard enough and we may end up getting the best Christmas present we could possibly have – a decisive victory over the astrologers in lab coats.

Stop Press: In an earlier version of this piece I referred to SAGE scientists as “Cassandras in lab coats”, but as many readers have pointed out, Cassandra made accurate predictions that weren’t believed, which is the exact opposite of the SAGE modellers. I’ve therefore changed it to “astrologers in lab coats”.

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320 Comments
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gedhurst
gedhurst
4 years ago

“See! We’ve saved the day once again. Just as well you listened to us, Prime Minister.”

Perceptive comment by Toby re: the ICL ‘modellers’.

From day 1, they’ve made hugely exaggerated claims based on dodgy models, invited every kind of NPI insanity, and then given themselves a huge pat on the back when it does fizzle out. That is exactly why they can make crazy claims: they can always say the models worked because the correct preventative steps were taken, and catastrophy was avoided.

rutlandrebel
rutlandrebel
4 years ago

I suspect pubs and restaurants will be ordered to close for a few weeks and then allowed to reopen but with the use of “certification” to “keep people safe” thus achieving their end goal, the introduction of vaccine passports into every day life. I hope I’m wrong.

wryobserver
4 years ago

Sorry, chaps, but I appropriated the Cassandra moniker a while back, many of my prophesies having been proved correct.. However, Galileo remains open. He is perhaps more apt, as he was persecuted like some of the sceptics of 2021. He would doubtless have been no-platformed in today’s world.

Laicey
Laicey
4 years ago

I’ve not noticed anyone in the gov or media mention it’s summer in South Africa. Surely that would have been a good argument for scaremongering. Is that because they want maintain the myth this can’t possibly be seasonal?

They will surely lockdown this winter. Otherwise it will be more difficult to lockdown next winter.

More and more I’m convinced they are trying to isolate people so they can divide them. Is it any co-incidence woke appeared at the same time directly targetting minorities while pretending to be their supporter?

If I were black I’d like that not to be the most defining thing about the way people see me. I might prefer they see I am kind, smart, fun etc. Not allowed any more – BLM says the defining thing about you is you are black.

Same for LBQTI(etc). Unvaccinated are ahead with all this and the public will be against other minorities before long.

Fear, isolation and hate of minorities. It’s not been this bad since the last time they tried it and because it’s centralised there isn’t a nation to have a war against this time.

Pete Sutton
Pete Sutton
4 years ago

A million deaths a day by the end of the year – that points to pretty much the entire country by the of Jan. Even a double-plus-exponential growth rate runs into a limiting factor — it runs out of people to infect. Sajid expects us to die several times over to keep up the numbers!

Littlebrother
Littlebrother
4 years ago

Here is some of what happens next in that story…

goaway2x2.jpg
lost in inner space
lost in inner space
4 years ago

I am relieved as anyone to hear of the relatively positive news from SA data and can feel the panic subsiding a little in todays news stories. It’s good news for families for Christmas and it’s hope for the New Year.

BUT, I’m afraid I won’t forgive or forget the villification of vaccine skeptics in a hurry. Those people who DARED to suggest that people who for whatever reason have not yet got their first jab should be denied healthcare are DESPICABLE and I will never forget the names of those who suggested such an atrocity.

The data has always been clear to anyone with a grasp of the difference between percentage, proportion, and absolute and relative risk of both covid and the vaccines. The fact that these differences were NOT made clear to those who do not understand the significance, and to my mind outright misrepresentation of the data for people to draw erroneous conclusions, is one of the biggest failings in this whole sorry mess.

We are not out of it yet either, with people now convinced of vaccine effectiveness against any variant, no matter how extinct or benign, it is going to be very difficult to… Read more »

A passerby
A passerby
4 years ago

I was recently talking to a virus and they informed me that COVID-19 was an imposter! At first this news was difficult to comprehend. I asked for proof that I wasn’t talking to myself. What proof do you need? Confused and not having a clue on how to answer that question, I said, a graph or something, not knowing how it would be presented or how I would even begin to interpret it, or some statistics, I blurted out, equally unsure whether this would be useful knowing how easily I give up trying to check a receipt from Tesco’s! They said and this is where they lost me completely, that they were one of 380 trillion viruses living on or in my body, the conversation then began to gravitate towards profanities…….ending with, unconsciously you know it’s all bollocks’!

jos
jos
4 years ago
Reply to  A passerby

I remember saying this in March 2020 on Facebook and having my post banned and someone calling me a clear and present danger. Mmm, I thought, really following the science?

Victory Gin
Victory Gin
4 years ago

Johnson does not have the courage to do what is right and just say no – he will fall into line with the rest of bullying cowards like Drakeford and Sturgeon who are both on a power trip.

Moist Von Lipwig
Moist Von Lipwig
4 years ago

Kim Jong Johnson will have his mind made up for him, either by those threatening to oust him or by those trying to terrify him into restrictions.

He has no ideas of his own.

chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago

It’s time the government asked for a new deck of independent sage, the current lot can’t count dominoes let alone provide correct information for this pandemic.

Old Bill
Old Bill
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

Sage need to grow some onions.

jos
jos
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

You do realise they’re called iSage for short (ice age – get it?). Could be a covert message to let people know we are currently in a Grand Solar Minimum and aren’t heading for global warming – far from it. Is it another acronym joke like Spi-B and Nervtag?

Ron Carlin
Ron Carlin
4 years ago

If there is no lockdown, how is the mad modeller going to get away with it again by claiming the “counter-factual” argument, namely that without his lockdown, the doomsday worst case scenario would have happened? We let him off the hook with Sweden, but I don’t think we’ll be this forgiving a second time around.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago

Boris needs to pretend that this Omicron thing is super terrible so he can extend the covid passport mandates, so more lockdown is guaranteed.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago

Enough with the ‘worst case’ modelling already. What is the ‘most likely’ outcome?

Model that you corrupt fsckers.

crimsonpirate
crimsonpirate
4 years ago
Reply to  Arfur Mo

as Graham Medley told Fraser Nelson they are not asked for “most likely” outcome. I suspect that Twitter exchange is the real reason the Cabinet did not choose one of three options presented

yLivi.
yLivi.
4 years ago

Scotland, 17302 infections in 20-59, 15 hospitalizations (p.18)
https://www.politico.eu/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/22/Scottish-Severity-Study.pdf

Ferguson & Imperial changing course

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/mrc-global-infectious-disease-analysis/covid-19/report-50-severity-omicron/

Overall, we find evidence of a reduction in the risk of hospitalisation for Omicron relative to Delta infections, averaging over all cases in the study period. The extent of reduction is sensitive to the inclusion criteria used for cases and hospitalisation, being in the range 20-25% when using any attendance at hospital as the endpoint, and 40-45% when using hospitalisation lasting 1 day or longer or hospitalisations with the ECDS discharge field recorded as “admitted” as the endpoint

This is the most pessimistic scenario, as in 204,000 cases already (Omicron & SGTF) there are 195 hospitalizations. Quite ridiculous

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1043466/20211222_OS_Daily_Omicron_Overview.pdf

RickH
RickH
4 years ago

that will leave the gloomsters of SAGE looking very silly indeed.”

Will it – really?

The only consistency in SAGE pronouncements has been their utter absurdity. In October 2020, I did my own ‘informed guess’ about mortality after Whitty’s absurd predictions of Armageddon. It was (needless to say) far, far more accurate than the modelling-based crapology.

… and this is the consistent record of the SAGE predictions – nonsense. But are they seen as ‘very silly’???

In my experience, the GBP are happy to return to the stale sick and lap it up as if it were nectar. I have been amazed at the sublime general ignorance about the ordinary winter virus that is ‘Omicron’.

John001
John001
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

It’s pathetic. People mostly don’t understand ‘critical thinking’.

In gloomier moments I ponder that the Soviet regime lasted 74 years and Communist China. has been going for 72 years. The Warsaw Pact took 45 yrs to fall apart. I’m 68 and don’t have that long to wait for democracy to return!

Liberty4UK
Liberty4UK
4 years ago

Enjoyed the cartoon.
For anyone who needs some seasonal light relief Damian Thompson has a unique humorous take on all this:
Eccles is saved: The Book of Covidicus 22: passports, please! (ecclesandbosco.blogspot.com)

ComeTheRevolution
ComeTheRevolution
4 years ago

OK – the original super mega killer strain of Convid which saw the world turned upside down in its name had a survival rate of 99.85pc – or 99.9pc as your teacher would have said to round it up to – according to the worlds most highly regarded and decorated epidemiologist Professor John Ioannidis – and the British government also confirmed it was only a low mortality rate virus in writing – if “it” ever truly existed at all which is questionable – yet somehow this strain is 80pc less deadly. Got it.

Merry Fascist Communist Convid Christmas everyone. Enjoy the tyranny

BREAKING NEWS ! Prof Dr John Ioannidis Stanford University On Real Data On Coronavirus Pandemichttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btvDL6kIDsA

Welcome to The Internet of Bodies
https://www.bitchute.com/video/eqHqp6t1n7ob/

Related:

Klaus Schwab and his great fascist reset
https://winteroak.org.uk/2020/10/05/klaus-schwab-and-his-great-fascist-reset/

Of Convid: “its mild” said Klaus Schwab

ComeTheRevolution
ComeTheRevolution
4 years ago

Status of COVID-19
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-consequence-infectious-diseases-hcid#status-of-covid-19

As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) in the UK. There are many diseases which can cause serious illness which are not classified as HCIDs.

The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.

The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.

But I think we can all agree, its all been worth it.

Anonymous
Anonymous
4 years ago

I suspect Boris Johnson will manage to get Graham Medley to come up with the modelling needed for a post-Christmas lockdown. 

crimsonpirate
crimsonpirate
4 years ago
Reply to  Anonymous

no need. As the Corona dashboard states “no reporting on 25 and 26 December, Retrospective numbers by publish date for 25 and 26 December to be added to 27 December”.
Then all it takes is for the BBC, Sky etc to fail to mention this to stoke up demand for a new lockdown.

Richard Austin
Richard Austin
4 years ago

The article was going so well and then we got the news that the odious twonk Owen Jones has come over to the dark side. Oh dear, that does not bode well. However, on the positive side I definitely see a difference in comments on news sites and Facebook. People are, very definitely, coming over to our side and are starting to say “Hang on a minute”. Why they were incapable of seeing the blindingly bleedin’ obvious before I have no idea.

chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago
Reply to  Richard Austin

I now feel dirty knowing that twit and I agree on something.

realarthurdent
realarthurdent
4 years ago
Reply to  chris-ds

He went from being pro Corbyn to being anti Corbyn and then pro Starmer pretty seamlessly.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  realarthurdent

If you ever feel inclined to buy Jones a present, send him a weather vane.

realarthurdent
realarthurdent
4 years ago
Reply to  Richard Austin

People go mad in crowds but recover their sanity one by one.

I think two things have changed – 1. a lot of people who were double jabbed and thought “OK, I’ve done my bit”, have been shocked to see that they are a) required to have even more jabs and b) are still restricted in what they can do; and 2. people can see that omicron has been vastly oversold, for which we should be thankful to the South African medics for standing up for the truth and for the UK journalists who rather belatedly have allowed some sceptical voices onto their front pages.

PoshPanic
PoshPanic
4 years ago
Reply to  realarthurdent

This is a pretty good reflection. I wonder if we’ll witness a sudden swing in opinion, rather than it just slowly turning?

realarthurdent
realarthurdent
4 years ago
Reply to  PoshPanic

As per Prof Mesmet, there are probably around 30% of people who have gone along with the narrative for a quiet life rather than because they are true believers – I think it is they who are starting to wake up. The 25% of diehards may never wake up, sadly for them.

I think the publicity about the No. 10 parties has had quite a big effect too. Perhaps not the effect the leakers may have planned – that people would be angry at the politicians for their hypocrisy. I think many people have seen the pictures and thought “hmmm… if they weren’t worried about a deadly virus, why did they introduce all those rules?”

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  PoshPanic

it’ll be led by the MSM (other than the BBC) who will smell a great opportunity to sell more of their crappy newsprint with headlines like “It’s Over”.

My original estimate was that would be early spring, then Boris (assuming he’s still around) would eventually emerge in early summer to crow over the success of his covid policies.

By the looks of it, this could move much faster than that.

CynicalRealist
CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  Richard Austin

Whatever you think of Jones, he’s listened to by many on the left – if he’s changed sides that has to be for the good as he’s in a position to influence some of the most extreme bedwetters out there.

MrTea
MrTea
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

If the whoopsies turn against the narrative then Boris is knackered, the queens always get their way.

huxleypiggles
huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  MrTea

Or Jones gets an envelope from Bill

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

From the OED Political Section:

Jones (n): an object for determining which way the wind blows.

chunky lafunga
chunky lafunga
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

I did think this, then I read the comments and its still Guardianista bed-wetting central. Here are some of my personal favourites, with my emphasis:

“That isn’t the case with Omnicron. All evidence points to this variant being far less dangerous than previous variants”
Yes, but that was because it evolved in rural Africa where there wasn’t much contact between people, so it had to be less lethal or it would kill its host before being passed on.
Now that it’s circulating in big cities the selection pressure not to kill people before being passed on is less. So there’s no reason it can’t hybridize with the Delta variant and become a Tau variant which is as lethal as Delta and as infectious as Omicron.”

“I think you’ll find drowning in your own juices in a plastic tent, or watching a loved one doing the same, is substantially more ‘bleak’ than missing out on the pub for a couple of weeks and wearing a bloody mask.”

“There seems to be a cognitive dissonance/inability for many people to realise that we are living through a global respiratory pandemic, of the sort not witnessed for almost a hundred years. Despite the monumental… Read more »

artfelix
artfelix
4 years ago

A small internal cheer when I read Toby saying “for whatever reason” the link between infection and hospitalisation was broken. And also, elsewhere, that the vaccine may have been “oversold”.

I can’t tell you how infuriating it is to see even sceptics in the media say “of course the vaccines are working but-“ as though they were witnesses at a witch trial, terrified of defending their case too much in case they too get accused of witchcraft.

Its time for sceptics – whatever their profile – to start standing up and saying what is clearly the case: that while, if you trust the people providing the data, there might be some evidence the vaccines are useful for the most vulnerable, the reality is that in every single metric that was put forward in support of their use the vaccines have unequivocally failed.

Sforzesca
Sforzesca
4 years ago
Reply to  artfelix

Sadly though the gene therapy has been immensely successful in enabling those really in charge to mandate the introduction of a digital ID system without barely a murmur – which is their end game.
It’s almost as though they’ve been planning this all along.

I mean, if the jabs had actually provided sterilising immunity – there would be zero zilch nein case for any digital ID system – not that there is anyway ( well, only if you’re a sheep).
It’s almost as if they’d been designed to fail.

milesahead
milesahead
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

Designed to fail? That depends on their long-term purpose. That will, unfortunately, become increasingly apparent over the next few years (the rise in mortality rates will conveniently be blamed on ‘long Covid’).

jos
jos
4 years ago
Reply to  Sforzesca

A repurposed fly virus / saline solution instead of vaccine / terrify people to make them ill: that would work. And by the way, the CDC is going to stop using the PCR tests from 31st December because they ‘can’t tell the difference between SARS viruses and flu’.

mishmash
mishmash
4 years ago

The agenda pushers are anxious, England is falling behind the curve.
They are going to push more restrictions, Boris is irrelevant in this decision.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago

Or Boris could look at the actual data, as several members of his Cabinet have been urging him to do.

I am not sure there is much benefit from Boris looking at data. Data and facts are not his thing. But others might do so on his behalf. They should do it intelligently, not just leap on press stories that support their position.  

Currently most regions in the UK are a mix of Delta and Omicron, but London is reputably close to 80% Omicron – so it is worth looking at its data separately, as well as the national picture, to see what might lie ahead. 

Now let’s look at each of Toby’s claims in this paragraph.

The data suggesting that, far from doubling every couple of days, the number of daily infections is plateauing. 

That was based on a couple of days data and already looks overoptimistic based on yesterday’s record number of cases. If you take a 7 day moving average, which is the statistically sensible approach, I am afraid there is no sign of a plateau. If you look at London they are doubling every four or five days.

The data suggesting that, for whatever reason, the link between… Read more »

Screenshot 2021-12-23 101538.png
Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Yawn. Certainty – covid was and is not an exceptional threat to society and NPIs do nothing to affect it anyway. If you’re worried about covid, get quadruple vaxxed, wear three masks, hide at home, and let human beings with a properly functioning brain get on with their lives as they always have done.

realarthurdent
realarthurdent
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

The key statistic is how many patients with COVID are there in hospital, since that is where the demand on the NHS can be measured, and the answer is around 7400, or an average of about 5 per UK hospital – the level it has been at since July.

If “is COVID overwhelming the NHS?” is the measure by which we should, or should not, introduce any further measures, the data is clear that we should not.

Capture.JPG
MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  realarthurdent

Yes. But the key question is how many can we expect to be in hospital over the next couple of months. As I indicated, the number in London is already beginning to rise. “On 22 December 2021 there were 2,036 COVID-19 patients in London hospitals. This compares with 1,372 patients on 15 December 2021″

CynicalRealist
CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Now compare this with previous years – can you find any where the number aren’t rising during December?

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

I don’t see your point. There has only been one previous year of Covid. Cases went up last December and peaked in January. So what?

CynicalRealist
CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

I’m not talking Covid – I mean hospitalisation rates generally. Trying to isolate “covid” cases is meaningless due to the persistent lack of clarity between ‘with’ and ‘of’.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

The perennial NHS winter bed occupancy issue – courtesy the Grauniad for that extra wholesome truthiness.

comment image

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

You persist with various fantasies – one being that things the government does in relation to covid have any influence on people getting covid or going to hospital, and one other being that the figures for “covid-19 patients” are meaningful and related to people suffering primarily from covid for which hospital care is required, as opposed to people who are in hospital for other reasons who happen to test positive. You are an apologist for lies and fascism.

PoshPanic
PoshPanic
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

You can never escape, from The Ministry of Fear!!

https://youtu.be/wXHHkvPPN9I

Screenshot 2021-12-22 at 20.04.01.png
APC
APC
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Is that so? And the absolute certainty of other outcomes outweighs the uncertainty does it? Here’s a little sum for you. The govt have spent £400bn so far on covid measures. That’s twice the annual nhs budget. Now if prof lockdown was right on report 9 and he’s “saved” 355,000 lives so far that’s cost £1.12m per life saved. The QALY tariff is £30k per year so each one of them better live another 40 years to make it break even. Oh but the average age of death “with” covid is 82.4! So they’ll have to make it to 120. Take that certainty and place it somewhere the sun don’t shine.

MadJock1
MadJock1
4 years ago
Reply to  APC

Brilliant!!!!!

CynicalRealist
CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  APC

And don’t forget to subtract all the lost life years caused as a direct result of the NHS not providing timely treatment for genuinely serious conditions (cancers, etc).

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

This argument is so strange. Do you think hospitals would have been able to provide better treatment for other conditions if Covid had been allowed to let rip?

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Have a look at Sweden or South Dakota or more recently Texas and Florida. Or lots of poor countries.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Do you think those countries/states did nothing to limit Covid? Here is Sweden for example:

https://sweden.se/life/society/sweden-and-corona-in-brief

It is based more on voluntary response than mandatory – but what matters is what people do not what they are told to do.

Note that they are on the point of introducing restrictions again for Omicron.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-tightens-covid-restrictions-cases-mount-2021-12-21/

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

What they are doing now for Omicron is irrelevant. I was in Sweden last year and while it was quieter it was fully open for most things, no social distancing, no masks, no school closures. No comparison to here. South Dakota. Our lockdown in the UK made cases in Sweden drop!

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Obviously I can’t comment on your personal experience – when were you there?

Here is an edited version of the Wikipedia summary of some of the Swedish government responses.

On 16 March 2020, the agency recommended that people over 70 should limit close contact with other people, and avoid crowded areas such as stores, public transport and public spaces. At the end of March, 93% of those older than 70 said that they were following the recommendations from the health service to some extent, with the majority having decreased their contacts with friends and family.

On 16 March 2020, they also recommended that employers should have their employees work from home. One month later, statistics showed that roughly half the Swedish workforce was working from home. 

The following day, the agency recommended that secondary schools and universities use distance learning, with schools following suit all over the country. 

In April, many of the organisations running the public transport systems for the Swedish counties had reported a 50% drop in public transport usage

The same day as the first Swedish death to COVID-19, 11 March, the Swedish government passed a new law at the request of the Public Health Agency, limiting freedom of assembly by banning all gatherings… Read more »

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

October last year. Of course Wikipedia is 100% accurate. It’s beyond dispute that Sweden last year had many fewer restrictions than the UK, a fact which was pointed out incessantly when lockdown satanists were rubbing their hands with glee at the death toll and predicting doom.
I don’t care what Sweden are doing now, their government is as bad as the rest.

CynicalRealist
CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Ah, we’re back to the old ‘let rip’ catchphrase are we! The reality is that none of the NPIs can be shown to have made the slightest difference to “covid” case rates. Meanwhile, it is undeniable that many people with serious health conditions could not access the healthcare they required.

The hospitals were not overflowing – for much of last year they were below normal occupancy.

milesahead
milesahead
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Allowed to let rip? Like it did in Belarus? They manged quite nicely there without destroying normal life.

jos
jos
4 years ago
Reply to  milesahead

As we’re looking back on some of the more puzzling early death rates, can anyone tell me why San Marino was from the beginning and still is the number 1 country for deaths per million? I know it’s a very small country but should that really skew the figures to such an extent? It also happens to be the European country chosen to be the hub for the earliest rollout of 5G towers starting in 2019 I think. In terms of the old con theories, I guess we’ve come full circle!

RedhotScot
RedhotScot
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

let rip”

What? like Sweden ‘let rip’?

RickH
RickH
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

Probably, since the approach would have been reality based.

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

‘let rip’ eh?

RickH
RickH
4 years ago
Reply to  CynicalRealist

Of course – you start off with a flawed premise – that government measures have had any significant impact. Which has been disproved multiple times.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  APC

I am not a supporter of full lockdowns. I just want the decision making to be done on a rational basis that reflects the uncertainties and possibilities, not press headlines selected to support a campaign.

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

The only rational decision was to do more or less nothing, beyond
1 Informing the public calmly of the likely risks
2 Provide extra capacity if possible, and improved infection control
3 Investigate treatments
4 Longer term, consider vaccines
None of these were done, in fact the opposite of these were done, plus a load of other shit which cost trillions and made everything a lot worse and ruined billions of people’s lives for nearly two years, and some forever

CynicalRealist
CynicalRealist
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

With number 2, they went way overboard on theatre to give the impression of infection control – none of which was in any previous pandemic plans, and none of which appears to have made the slightest difference to infection rates.

APC
APC
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

yes but no-one ever presented a cost benefit analysis did they, so all the data mining mining in the world isn’t going help you make that decision. A rational basis of a decision has to include the cost and this will have been the most costly pandemic in human history. It’s been known since summer 2020 that the IFR is around 0.15% – compare that to other pandemics. The headlines have always been dominated by the lockdown/anti-libertarian fanatics and not by the sceptics who have been side-lined, closed-down, cancelled. I just want sanity.

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

“I am not a supporter of full lockdowns”

Great. In what way would you like to partially imprison me and my loved ones, indefinitely?

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

There are lots of NPIs that do not involve being restricted at home and allow most businesses to function:

  • mask wearing
  • limiting size of indoor gatherings
  • social distancing
  • encouraging working at home where possible
  • requiring LTF tests before attending various events
  • etc

(Incidentally most of these have been tried by Sweden – not sure about the tests.)

No doubt you will claim they are not effective. Unfortunately there isn’t time to go over all the arguments. So I will just say that is what I mean when I say I don’t support full lockdowns.

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

I don’t give a fuck what you call the above, full, partial or any other kind of lockdown or NPI – there’s no real world evidence that any of them “work” and even if they did, covid is not exceptional at a societal level and therefore does not justify any mandates like the above. If you’re worried about it, distance yourself, wear bio hazard masks, take hourly, get injected with experiment drugs every few months, work from home, for as long as it pleases you. Leave me and my family the fuck alone.

No masks or social distancing when I was in Sweden, no requiment for tests.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Obviously I can’t speak for your personal experiences. Here are details (edited version of Wikipedia) of the measures Sweden has taken and some estimates of the public response. My emphasis.

Social distancingOn 16 March 2020, the agency recommended that people over 70 should limit close contact with other people, and avoid crowded areas such as stores, public transport and public spaces. At the end of March, 93% of those older than 70 said that they were following the recommendations from the health service to some extent, with the majority having decreased their contacts with friends and family.

On 16 March 2020, they also recommended that employers should have their employees work from home. One month later, statistics showed that roughly half the Swedish workforce was working from home. 

The following day, the agency recommended that secondary schools and universities use distance learning, with schools following suit all over the country. 

In April, many of the organisations running the public transport systems for the Swedish counties had reported a 50% drop in public transport usage In Stockholm, the streets grew increasingly emptier, with a 30% drop in the number of cars, and 70% fewer pedestrians.

Ban on gatheringsThe same day as the first Swedish death to COVID-19,… Read more »

X - In Search of Space
X - In Search of Space
4 years ago
Reply to  APC

Exquisite!

RickH
RickH
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

The graph is a perfect illustration of the ‘casedemic’ phenomenon – i.e a fiction.

You’ve been consistently wrong so far, however, so why change now?

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  RickH

It is the same figures that Toby et al use to make their case that cases are plateauing – just presented in a different way. Maybe you should take it up with them?

Julian
Julian
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

We’re not joined at the hip to TY. “Cases” are meaningless.

realarthurdent
realarthurdent
4 years ago

If we put to one side the possibility that quite a few senior politicians have been bought by Big Pharma and the vaccine lobby and just assume for one moment that Toby is right and the last 21 months has been all about cock-up, then one huge factor in contributing to the cock-up has been the absolute dearth of politicians from a numerate, scientific or engineering background who are sufficiently grounded in reality to question the so-called experts like SAGE.

We BADLY need to chuck out a large proportion of the PPE graduates who populate the benches of the House of Commons and elect a new cohort who can count, understand statistics and are capable of spotting bullshit.

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago
Reply to  realarthurdent

Good luck with that, Common Purpose type graduates have been rolled out for at least 30 years

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  realarthurdent

Cock-up? Only in a Ferguson/Handcock sense. This situation has been planned for over many years, overtly with the change of definition of pandemic to exclude a requirement for deaths, and also the explicit legal immunity granted to Big Pharma following to 2009 “flu vaccine gives kids permanent brain damage” PR issue. Zika was an early example of a disease affecting poor countries that TPTB hoped would spread to the west allowing Big Pharma to go ‘kerching’. It fizzled out fortunately.

Smelly Melly
Smelly Melly
4 years ago

Off topic, but has anybody else noted in the free online Daily Telegraph they use to have a bar graph showing the numbers of “boosters” given against the target number. The last time I saw it, they were lagging about 30% behind target. Now it no longer appears, strange that.

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  Smelly Melly

It reminds me of how the UK government stopped reporting ‘recovered’ statistics shortly after the start of the lockdown in early 2020. Apparently, the message was you caught covid and died … at sometime in the future. … but only in the UK.

DanClarke
DanClarke
4 years ago

They could do all of that as long as long as it wouldn’t make the shares plummet because IMO, at the top of this pile of * its all about the money

Arfur Mo
Arfur Mo
4 years ago
Reply to  DanClarke

The Central Banksters can’t keep printing money forever. Their usual m/o is to trigger a war, timing known to them so then can cover themslves to take advantage. Russia’s ultimatum to NATO has pre-empted that so the central banksters are now facing the consequences outside of their control. More and more Asian countries are side stepping the USD for international trade (currency swaps being preferred) so soon the USD really will be toilet paper. China is disposing of part of its nmassive holding by running massive infrastructure building projects, converting paper to assets. The western USD dependent economies are heading in a very unpleasant direction.

Bobby Lobster
Bobby Lobster
4 years ago

I have been sick of being told to save our Notional Health Service for 22 months. They must love being pinged ads they have nothing to do in empty hospitals.
We need the lefty public sector to be reined in. If Doris doesn’t know by now that they will never vote Tory, he never will.

realarthurdent
realarthurdent
4 years ago
Reply to  Bobby Lobster

I got a surprising amount of support for this comment in the Guardian yesterday.

I think the Health lobby have gone too far with COVID and will pay a heavy price. Appetite for reform of the NHS is going to grow. People don’t take kindly to have GP appointments or cancer checkups denied to them.

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steve_z
steve_z
4 years ago

if you look at the all cause mortality around the world its hard not to come away with the feeling its the lockdowns doing he killing and covid is just ‘present at time of death of old age’

Peru had the hardest lockdown in the world and doubled its annual deaths

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/cumulative-excess-mortality-p-scores-projected-baseline?tab=chart&country=PER~SWE

Boomer Bloke
Boomer Bloke
4 years ago

I’ve listened to the arguments. And pored over the data. The carefully considered question that I would like to ask Boris and his SAGE advisors is ‘would you ever away and take a flying fuck at yourselves’

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