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Another Computer Simulation, Another Alarmist Prediction

A Covid-safe classroom

Last week, a paper was published in the Lancet saying that re-opening schools would cause a tsunami-like second wave of Covid deaths unless the Government improved its test-and-trace programme. Based on a similar computer simulation to that used by Neil Ferguson et al, the paper generated headlines across the mainstream media, such as this one in the Sun: “‘NOT GOOD ENOUGH’ Reopening schools in September risks 2nd virus wave unless test & trace improves as ministers say: ‘There’s more to do’.” The story began:

SCHOOL children returning to class in September risks triggering a devastating second wave of COVID-19 unless test and trace improves, a major new study today says.

Scientists said the UK’s test and trace system needed to be drastically improved as ministers today admitted there was “more to do” on making it work better.

IF the low numbers of contact tracing continue, it could result in another peak in December.

The crisis could be avoided, however – with pubs remaining open and no draconian lockdowns needed – if testing is ramped up and the track and trace system is improved.

The study says reopening schools must therefore be combined with a high-coverage test-trace-isolate strategy.

But how reliable is this study? I asked Sue Denim, the Lockdown Sceptics contributor who has written extensively about the flaws in Neil Ferguson’s modelling, to take a look at this paper for us. Regular readers won’t need reminding that Sue Denim is the pseudonym of a senior ex-Google engineer. Not surprisingly, Sue is unimpressed.

The paper argues that the level of testing, tracing and quarantining must be much higher than it is now in order to “avert a large number of COVID-19 cases and deaths” once schools have re-opened. In this case, a “large number” means a second wave of about 2-2.5x the size of the first, ending in about 320,000 cumulative deaths. That’s the worst case they simulate which still assumes a fairly aggressive contact tracing programme.

This number of predicted deaths is in the same sort of range as the ~500,000 predicted by Ferguson et al, which is no surprise given what the model does. The lower value comes from applying a reduction from some fraction of unlucky PCR-positive people being quarantined.

We already know this modelling approach doesn’t work because it failed to predict the course of the epidemic in Sweden. There is no mention in the paper of having identified any flaw in prior models that led to incorrect predictions, or even any recognition that agent-based simulations have yielded incorrect predictions before.

Sweden kept their schools open the entire time and saw no higher rate of infections amongst children than neighbouring Finland.

As we’ve come to expect from a group of epidemiologists, the papers do not perform this kind of cross-check against real world observed outcomes nor attempt to explain prior failures. There is no feedback loop.

I’ve published Sue’s latest article on the right-hand side as another sub-page of “How Reliable is Imperial College’s Modelling?”, beneath the three other pieces he/she’s written for us. Please comment beneath that page, not this one. Worth reading in full.

Stop Press: One of the largest studies in the world on coronavirus in schools was carried out in 100 institutions in the UK. According to Professor Russel Viner, President of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health and a member of SAGE. “A new study that has been done in UK schools confirms there is very little evidence that the virus is transmitted in schools,” Professor Viner tells the Sunday Times. “This is the some of the largest data you will find on schools anywhere. Britain has done very well in terms of thinking of collecting data in schools.” The study, done by Public Health England, is due to be published later this year.

Re-Open Schools, says Harvard Professor of Medicine

The Spectator has published an excellent piece by Martin Kulldorff, a Professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School who studies infectious disease outbreaks and vaccine safety. He says the way to defeat the virus is to aim for herd immunity and points out that such a strategy poses very little risk to children.

With passionate discussions about opening schools, it is good to step back, take a deep breath, and examine what science tells us. To know the effect of smoking, we study smokers. To know the effects of vaccines, we study those vaccinated. Similarly, to know the effects of keeping schools open during the COVID-19 pandemic, we must study the one place that kept their schools open during the height of the pandemic. That place is Sweden.

Sweden never closed day-care centres or schools for its 1.8 million children ages one to 15. Of these children, zero died from COVID-19. The total number of cases is unknown, but the reported number is 468, which is 25 per 100,000. Of these 468 children, eight were hospitalised in an intensive care unit. This means that, whether schools are open or not, children are less at risk from COVID-19 than from influenza, which kills an average of 40-50 children in England and Wales each year. In contrast to influenza, schools are not driving the Covid-19 pandemic, and in Sweden, teachers had the same COVID-19 risk as the average risk among other professions.

Worth reading in full.

Meanwhile, some bedwetting headteachers are telling parents they’ll only be able to educate their children for half days. Give me strength.

Love in a Covid Climate

Matthew Rhys and Keri Russell in “The Americans”, the American TV show about two undercover Soviet agents living in America in the 1980s

I got an interesting email from a reader yesterday:

Am thinking of getting back onto the dating apps, having recently become single. It made me realise that a key criterion for meeting someone like-minded is that they absolutely must be a lockdown sceptic. If they are pro-mask or pro-antisocial distancing, they will be instantly binned. As I begin my journey back into the dating pool, I will be expressing openly my lockdown views and Covid scepticism on my dating profile. I genuinely think that if I can find a girl as sceptical as me, she must therefore be marriage material! That’s how important (and sadly divisive) this issue has now become. I could never date (let alone build a relationship) with a lockdown zealot, such is my disdain for these virtue-signalling bedwetters!

That reminded me that I’d flagged up the idea of creating a Lockdown Sceptics dating site a few weeks ago. Well, we haven’t done that exactly, but we have decided to devote a page in the Forums to people looking for romance. It’s called “Love in a Covid Climate” and you can find it at the bottom here.

Postcard From Whitby

A reader has got in touch to say he and his wife had a pleasant stay in Whitby. A beacon of common sense amidst all the hysteria, as you’d expect in North Yorkshire.

Whitby was the last place my wife and I visited pre-lockdown so we were determined to go back as soon as we were able. A few days before we went we came across a photo doing the rounds on social media showing hundreds of people swarming across Whitby’s famous swing bridge accompanied by the now familiar comments – “Covidiots”, “terrified locals”, etc. I admit, it made us a little uneasy and we’re both arch sceptics!

When we arrived at the B&B we were pleased to find sensible but not ridiculous precautions in place: breakfast sittings spread out a little more, trays outside the rooms to replenish anything we’d used, lots of hand sanitiser available, and so on. I asked the owners about the photos we’d seen and they were disgusted. The photo of the bridge had been taken immediately after the bridge had been shut to let a boat pass, giving a false impression of overcrowding. Other photos in circulation were not from this year at all but from busy days on previous years! The B&B had actually had cancellations on the back of this stuff. They assured us that Whitby wasn’t like that and, if anything, was quieter than usual for the time of year.

Venturing into the town, we found that they were right. Yes, there were plenty of people about but it was easy to keep your distance if you felt that way inclined (though it was refreshing to see most people making the eminently sensible judgement that fleeting contact outdoors on a sunny day was fairly low risk). Walking around the town in the morning or late afternoon/evening was fine and at no point did we see locals leaping into the road in terror.

That night we ate at a very famous fish and chip restaurant and found, again, sensible precautions balanced with an awareness that a meal out needs to be at least a vaguely enjoyable customer experience. So – the tables had been spaced out a little more (actually creating a more intimate atmosphere), card payments were preferred but not insisted on, some staff chose to wear masks, others didn’t, and a separate entrance/exit had been set up. Otherwise, everything was very relaxed and laid back. Not so much the ‘new normal’ more the old normal with a few adjustments. And that was the theme of our whole weekend: grown-up people taking grown-up decisions and behaving in a grown-up way. After six months of hysterical death porn it gave me just a flicker of hope that common sense will eventually win out. We even booked again for October. Though given that I turn 50 before then I guess there’s a fair chance that Boris might have me in solitary confinement; still, at least the wife should enjoy herself.

Face Nappies To Become Mandatory in Northern Ireland

Bad news for the people of Northern Ireland: face nappies will become mandatory in shops from tomorrow. A reader has the story:

A few weeks ago, the local Executive said that they wanted to encourage people to wear masks in shops rather than force them to. Their aim was to achieve 80% voluntary compliance. They proposed reviewing the situation on August 20th and if there wasn’t sufficient mask use then they would make it mandatory.

The “take-up” of mask use since the initial announcement has been fairly poor from the Executive‘s point of view. From being out and about I would guess about 10% of people in shops were wearing them.

So the public here have been largely unimpressed with the arguments for mask wearing and decided there’s not much point in doing so.

However, rather than thinking that the judgement of the people is something they should consider, the Executive brought forward the date for re-consideration and announced that due to the poor voluntary use of masks they will become compulsory in shops from this coming Monday August 10th.

Another example of a government in this crisis having tunnel vision about a particular course of action and not being able to contemplate anything different despite what the people think.

Lockdown Protests Across the UK

Two demonstrators at an anti-lockdown protest in Manchester yesterday

Lockdown protests took place in London, Plymouth, Brighton, Norwich, Cardiff, Belfast, Southampton, Bristol, Liverpool, Newcastle, Birmingham, Nottingham, Leeds, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Manchester yesterday. They were organised by an outfit called “Save Our Rights UK“.

A reader reports from the protest in Manchester:

Our turnout in Manc was around 200, which was matched or surpassed in most other locations. It was very uplifting to partake in a microcosm of the best bits of the old normal with hugs and handshake physical greetings, no social distancing and looking out to a sea of unmasked friendly faces! We had no problems with the police (in fact they were quite friendly). Some of the public we passed were receptive to our messages, and a couple even joined in the march!

Croatian Advice

A reader has got in touch to reassure the anxious Americans who emailed yesterday, worried about their forthcoming trip to Croatia. Doesn’t sound too bad.

Currently in croatia you have to fill a form in before departure which they don’t check on arrival. Masks worn in shops and public transport but quite lax. Don’t see anyone wearing masks outside those settings.

Another reader points out that Gabriel Traveler, the YouTuber and travel journalist, is currently in Croatia and having a fine time. You can view his daily updates here.

Round-Up

Theme Tune Suggestions by Readers

It’s a beach bonanza today: “Beach Death” by Car Seat Headrest, “Menace Beach” by Dom Kennedy, “On Evil Beach” by Duran Duran, “I Want To Go To The Beach” by Iggy Pop and “The Beach Is Free” by Billy Bragg.

Small Businesses That Have Re-Opened

A couple of months ago, Lockdown Sceptics launched a searchable directory of open businesses across the UK. The idea is to celebrate those retail and hospitality businesses that have re-opened, as well as help people find out what has opened in their area. But we need your help to build it, so we’ve created a form you can fill out to tell us about those businesses that have opened near you.

Now that non-essential shops have re-opened – or most of them, anyway – we’re now focusing on pubs, bars, clubs and restaurants, as well as other social venues. As of July 4th, many of them have re-opened too, but not all (and some of them are at risk of having to close again). Please visit the page and let us know about those brave folk who are doing their bit to get our country back on its feet – particularly if they’re not insisting on face masks! Don’t worry if your entries don’t show up immediately – we need to approve them once you’ve entered the data.

Forums Back Up and Running

I enjoy reading all your comments and I’m glad I’ve created a “safe space” for lockdown sceptics to share their frustrations and keep each other’s spirits up. But please don’t copy and paste whole articles from papers that are behind paywalls in the comments. I work for some of those papers and if they don’t charge for premium content they won’t survive.

We have created some Lockdown Sceptics Forums that are now open. Initially, they became a spam magnet so we temporarily closed them. However, we’ve found a team of people willing to serve as moderators so the Forums are back up and running. And we’ve added a new dating section – “Love in a Covid Climate”. Any problems, email the Lockdown Sceptics webmaster Ian Rons here.

“Mask Exempt” Lanyards

I thought I’d create a new permanent slot down here for people who want to buy (or make) a “Mask Exempt” lanyard/card. You can print out and laminate a fairly standard one for free here and it has the advantage of not explicitly claiming you have a disability. But if you have no qualms about that (or you are disabled), you can buy a lanyard from Amazon saying you do have a disability/medical exemption here (now showing it will arrive between Sept 23rd to Oct 2nd). The Government has instructions on how to download an official “Mask Exempt” notice to put on your phone here. You can get a “Hidden Disability” tag from eBay here and an “exempt” card that looks like as if it’s been issued by the NHS for just £2.79 from Etsy here.

Don’t forget to sign the petition on the UK Government’s petitions website calling for an end to mandatory face nappies in shops here (now over 27,000).

A reader has started a website that contains some useful guidance about how you can claim legal exemption.

Meanwhile, the public health authorities in Denmark are maintaining that there’s no need to wear masks. This prompted Berlingske, the country’s oldest newspaper, to complain recently that Danes had positioned themselves “to the right of Trump”. Danish health officials responded by reminded the paper that there’s little conclusive evidence that face masks are an effective way to limit the spread of respiratory viruses. Zero Hedge has more.

Shameless Begging Bit

Thanks as always to those of you who made a donation in the past 24 hours to pay for the upkeep of this site. If you feel like donating, however small the sum, please click here. And if you want to flag up any stories or links I should include in future updates, email me here.

And Finally…

Comments

This week across the site:

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1.3K Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Anji
Anji
6 years ago

Yes…I think I’m skeptical about all this pandemic situation. Everytime I listen to the news… it’s always about Covid-19! It is making me sick and tired, minus the virus of course! One can’t say who is saying the truth…is it a case of rock and scissors? Well, I really hope all this disappears as fast as it appeared! Godspeed to all!!

skipper
skipper
6 years ago

Just on if someone has already had it, can they catch it again. What you have to realise here is that the people catching this and being the most significantly affected are people with underlying illnesses and very weak immune systems. I think these people could catch it again as they are immuno compromised, but if you have a totally normal immune systems then I can’t really see that you would catch it twice.

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago

Just look at this shit. Warning it will give you brain cancer:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53688259

Absolute charlies

DavidC
DavidC
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

I wonder why they don’t allow comments…

DavidC

Wendy
Wendy
6 years ago
Reply to  DavidC

FFS. Is this the lead up to masks in outdoor places too!!! I hope there will be rioting!!

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

My mum worked as a nurse with a consultant dermatologist in the 60’s. He thought it a nice idea to present his staff with copies of his authored text books for Xmas.

I spent happy childhood hours exploring my parents bookshelves ever wary of coming across those books with b/w photos of the most hideous & disgusting skin conditions.

mjr
mjr
6 years ago

MONDAY’S EDITION IS NOW AVAILABLE
https://dailysceptic.org/2020/08/10/latest-news-99/#comments
Dont be late!

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/tegnell-sagar-munskydd-i-tysk-intervju-farligt/ Tegnell interview Bild Germany “ Strange considering the amount of masks used around the world that there are no studies showing how they have any effects. Indeed, the very mask wearing countries like Spain and Belgium have now increased infections. Carrying a mask gives you a false sense of security so you are relaxing the social restrictions and other hygienic routines.It is very dangerous to believe that masks will solve this problem”

Nick Rose
Nick Rose
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

We’re also seeing increased infections in Japan. Quite a large increase. There has thankfully not been a corresponding increase in deaths.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/japan/

Steve
Steve
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

So… are they imagining people wearing masks and rolling around in a bath of used needles or something?

I’m pretty sure that people who wear masks won’t be the ones refusing to take other precautions. I’m pretty sure it will be those refusing to wear masks who’ll refuse to take other precautions.

Annie
Annie
6 years ago

A real dialogue, overheard. Beckett could not do better.

Boss: You’ve got to keep wiping this stuff over the machinery.
Mechanic: OK.
Boss: It’ll wreck it, mind.
Silence
Mechanic: Shall I just pretend to wipe it, then?
Boss: OK.

Nigel Sherratt
Nigel Sherratt
6 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Brilliant, ‘I Contain Multitudes’

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Russian Communism, You pretend to pay us, we pretend to work.

Telpin
Telpin
6 years ago

Regarding the impact on university students my student daughter has just sent letters to Starmer, the Universities minister and shadow minister. She would like to forward to TY as testimony of how the new draconian restrictions being proposed by universities are hugely impactful and damaging for young university students. Could anyone tell me what email address she should use? Thanks

Julian
Julian
6 years ago
Reply to  Telpin
Telpin
Telpin
6 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Thanks v much Julian – will let her know

TJN
TJN
6 years ago

Just out and thought I’d call in at two supermarkets to get the lay of the land down here in deepest Devon. I was the only unmuzzled prole in both shops, which is sad.

As I was leaving the second one I saw something which I found distressing, and have immediately emailed my MP, Geoffrey Cox, about it.

Dear Mr Cox,
I’ve just returned from a brief visit to a Tesco in your constituency – unmuzzled of course. 

At the entrance there was an old lady, frail and bent over, explaining to one of the assistants that she couldn’t hear people talking when she was wearing a mask, as it covered her ears. Her muzzle didn’t cover her ears; but I suspect she actually means she can’t hear other people talking through their own muzzles, although she doesn’t fully understand this. 

Try to imagine, if you can, walking in her shoes just for a few moments. She probably lives alone, and perhaps about the only time she sees smiling faces, hears people talking, or exchanges greetings and a few brief words, is when she goes shopping. And now that’s been taken from her. 

And she probably has no… Read more »

Annie
Annie
6 years ago
Reply to  TJN

Good. Well said.

Sam Vimes
Sam Vimes
6 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Yes, indeed. But guess what….?

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  TJN

I said pretty much the same thing to my MP and all I got was a load of old bollocks back.

Gillian
Gillian
6 years ago
Reply to  TJN

Great letter.

Steve
Steve
6 years ago
Reply to  TJN

Why do you think that old ladies are morons?

TJN
TJN
6 years ago
Reply to  Steve

I don’t, and that’s not what I said.

Andrew
Andrew
6 years ago

Are we going to see the minutes from the SAGE meeting that brougbt in mandatory masks? The scientists explaining why they had changed their minds, giving details of the groundbreaking research that meant the advice of 100 years had to reversed.

Margaret
Margaret
6 years ago
Reply to  Andrew

I’m still waiting for my MP to send me an update from the Department of Transport regarding their risk assessment on wearing masks for long journeys. The first one they sent was all about their perceived efficacy of masks-not what I asked for at all. I want to know about all the gory bacterial infections, pustulating skin rashes and bursting mouth ulcers that come with wearing a muzzle.

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Margaret

I asked a Traffic Cop about that, he just said blankly
” we don’t wear them “.

Sam Vimes
Sam Vimes
6 years ago

BREAKING NEWS JUST ON RADIO!
Some illegal immigrants have tried to come into the country in small boats, even though we have the deadly virus! It started just this week, but the PM and Home Sec are looking at how to protect us! Thank goodness they are nipping this in the bud.

Sarigan
Sarigan
6 years ago
Reply to  Sam Vimes

I think they are monitoring things:

https://www.radarbox.com/data/flights/RRR4998

sue
sue
6 years ago

hi – for anyone interested …the academy of ideas is holding a series of talks via zoom with a number of presenters. I attended the last one which was related to the virus and future etc and was interesting debate with Q&A etc. It has Claire Fox who I think is involved and sounds to talk a lot of sense (in my opinion)

There is an event tomorrow evening on ‘cancel culture’ link below, it’s free (donations appreciated though) and can get tickets on eventbrite.

http://academyofideas.org.uk/events/can_we_cancel_cancel_culture#.XzEobihKiUl

tallandbald
tallandbald
6 years ago

https://twitter.com/ninnyd101/status/1292196481940828161

“No Mask” march going on ….. Hurrah!!

DressageRider
DressageRider
6 years ago

Is this just me, but I think the global number of cases may have peaked. If you look at the John Hopkins university site:

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html

Daily cases bottom right.

What do you all think?

Julian
Julian
6 years ago
Reply to  DressageRider

I get a login page…

Major Panic in the jabby jabbys
Major Panic in the jabby jabbys
6 years ago
Reply to  DressageRider

well usually when cases peak and start to drop down we go into lockdown…

Sarigan
Sarigan
6 years ago

A depressing portrayal of exactly where we are heading:

https://off-guardian.org/2020/08/10/invasion-of-the-new-normals/

IanE
IanE
6 years ago
Reply to  Sarigan

Quite – I would love to believe (as I would have decades ago) that it could not happen here.

DanClarke
DanClarke
6 years ago
Reply to  Sarigan

Good Article, although not what I see around me, with life going in completely as per ‘old normal’. The thing about those sponges who soak up each new fad, is that they get bored quickly and look for the next new fad.

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  DanClarke

Hopefully the next new fad will be ripping someone elses mask off.

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago

Well, that was upsetting. I just had a customer bring his PC round to me to sort out and he was wearing a bastard face nappy. I was really hoping he wouldn’t but he feckin did. I am still shaking. Still I kindly gave him both barrels and he kindly removed it.

FFS.

I almost told him to take his PC away and find another PC fixer. Lucky for him he was a nice thoughtful caring fellow.

IanE
IanE
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

Good moniker – I was inspired to look up two, six and discovered my ignorance of nautical parlance. Most appropriate for any group effort here!

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  IanE

Nautical parlance? 🙂 How you mean?

IanE
IanE
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

“Two, six, heave …” used to coordinate team efforts – perhaps I misunderstood your name then?

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  IanE

LOL yer I like it but no it’s not why I have this name. I have had it for AGES, I started using it way back when I was into a game called “Comanche 3” a helicopter game. The main protagonist’s character had a call sign of Griffon Two-Six. I liked it and started using it. It was neutral and non descriptive of anything but perhaps the connotations of “Too Sick” made me like it even more.

I am the original and best Two-Six. Many have followed, lots of Rappers actually…:-)

Nick Rose
Nick Rose
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

Must admit I’d read it as “Two Six… Heave” as well. It’s a gunnery thing from the days of cannon broadsides, because Number Two and Number Six in the gun crew were responsible for heaving the gun so the muzzle was pointing out from the gun port.

The gun moved backwards naturally when it was fired…

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  Nick Rose

Ahhhh nice….

Edward
Edward
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

I thought it was something to do with half a crown (two shillings and sixpence) – showing my age.

Annie
Annie
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

Well done.
Got any more badges?

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  Annie
Annie
Annie
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

Good-oh, order’s in.

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  Annie

YAY!

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  Two-Six

NestaFattyBoulder??? lol
On the way!

Victoria
Victoria
6 years ago

No antibacterial only useful for bacteria, does not kill viruses.

Same as a cold/flu, yes you can’t get it again but it is because it has mutated and you are not ‘immune’ to the new strain. However if you have optimised levels of vitamin D3 and very healthy your body might be able to fight it and prevent infection or be able to fight the infection very well.

Re Granny kill statement – best response “I am exempt”. If you really want to convince someone you could explain that Granny would hopefully improve her immune system, but that all of us fight lots of viruses (including the whole spectrum of current Corona viruses), bacteria and pathogens on a daily basis, not just Covid-19.

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

“The Coronavirus Is Never Going AwayNo matter what happens now, the virus will continue to circulate around the world.”

Another article in MSM (Atlantic) saying things she might have picked up at LockDown sceptics!

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/08/coronavirus-will-never-go-away/614860/

Tide changing? These type of articles in MSM not found earlier

Nobody2021
Nobody2021
6 years ago

The funny thing about herd immunity is that the effects are compound. Every person that becomes immune reduces the pool of hosts until a critical mass is reached. Even if immunity is short term it is enough to enable the Herd Immunity Threshold to be reached within a relatively short period of time.

NPIs are generally binary in effect. For example, once you stop lockdown or wearing a mask the effect (if any) stops.

As with compound investments the sooner you start on Herd Immunity the greater the gains in the long term.

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

“The Good (But Not Great) News About T-Cells and Herd Immunity”
Important article from MSM but now giving a very nuanced story and well worth reading. Great balanced journalism.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/amp/2020/08/reasons-for-covid-19-optimism-on-t-cells-and-herd-immunity.html?__twitter_impression=true

Rick H
Rick H
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

A bit of a mixed bag of an article, typified by it’s comments about Karl Friston – implying that his important interview for ‘Unherd’ emerged from the ‘dark web’.

Of course, Friston is actually a massive brain with a proven track record in mathematical modelling – unlike the cave-dwelling troglodytes represented by Ferguson et al.

His comments on the underlying variables related to the virus are fascinating, and have a lot of face validity – unlike the simplistic and *wrong* predictions made by the bog-standard epidemiologists that the article seems to credit with wisdom.

Margaret
Margaret
6 years ago

OK, so OH and I are trying to get round to all the local supermarkets to test the waters re: mask wearing. Oh we do lead exciting lives!

We are giving Sainsbury’s today a 9 out of 10.

Big notice outside about wearing face coverings but no mention of exemptions. Pointed this out to the lady greeter who told us that they made regular tannoy announcements to this effect. Yes they did and it was done in a clear loud voice, unlike the muffled, garbled one in Asda the other day. Well done!

OH noticed a sign by customer services advertising free sunflower lanyards, which is excellent, but point deducted for the fact that few shoppers will need to use customer services and therefore will not see it, so there needs to be a lot more of these notices scattered around the store.

Have noticed that hand sanitising requests are fast disappearing. Can’t remember the last time I was requested to sanitise as I entered a shop. The sanitisers are still there but are no longer policed.

Next stop a bakery with several local branches. Unmasked warrior behind the counter said that she liked my badge. Once again, fellow sceptics,… Read more »

MiriamW
MiriamW
6 years ago
Reply to  Margaret

Your lives sound about as exiting as ours, Margaret! 🙂 Thanks for the update and the pioneering work. (Maybe you saw my post about the effect of my badge after your experiences persuaded us to start wearing them after all. La lutte continue!)

Margaret
Margaret
6 years ago
Reply to  Margaret

Hi kh. That’s good news about your customer. Perhaps word of mouth will increase exponentially just like the virus didn’t. Keep up the excellent work!

HaylingDave
HaylingDave
6 years ago
Reply to  Margaret

Thanks for the update Margaret!

It’s your story and others’ on here which give me the strength to walk in to shops unmasked – I have severe anxiety about masks, and also about confrontation … sorry, I am just slightly flawed in that respect.

And as I approach a store entrance and the anxiety starts to swell, I think back to the daily updates on here and fragments of stories go through my head, and all of a sudden, I’m in with a basket and down an aisle.

I hope at some point, the need for daily inspirations such as this disappear (as has Covid), but for now, I thank you and everyone else for posting!

Cheers and have a fab. day.

Margaret
Margaret
6 years ago
Reply to  HaylingDave

HD never ever think that you are even the slightest bit flawed. My fear of masks comes from going to the dentist’s at an early age-my aunt worked there- I still have flash backs of the gas mask being put over my nose and mouth and can still smell the awful rubber smell mixed in with the gas. I think I was about five at the time.
I could wear a mask if I chose to, but I don’t on both counts.
Onwards and upwards my friend.

Annie
Annie
6 years ago
Reply to  HaylingDave

Nobody can be blamed for being apprehensive about confrontation. The zombie herd is a ghastly and unnerving sight. But they are also tremendous cowards. Sod them, tear up that horrible nappy, you’ll be fine!
Whatever you do, you are one of us.

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  HaylingDave

You only have to get all braved up the first time, then it’s a doddle.

Bella
Bella
6 years ago
Reply to  Margaret

I’m missing a trick here. Why’s it good news if he’s asked regularly where they can be bought? Surely that means more people are interested in buying the muck?

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Bella

I think he means the lanyard, pesky ‘)’.

Suitejb
Suitejb
6 years ago
Reply to  Margaret

Our Sainsbury’s has been great all through lockdown and beyond. I wrote to the manager to thank the staff for their calm and friendly manner during lockdown and asked about the stores approach to masks. I promptly got an excellent letter Saying that it was NOT the role of staff to police masking and that they were well aware that some customers could not wear masks, the reasons being none of their business.
Like Margaret’s store they also regularly make a clear announcement to that effect.

MiriamW
MiriamW
6 years ago

If anyone still thinks Johnson is actually in charge of anything or the Trump v Biden election will have any relevance to the Global Reset, watch this:

https://www.bitchute.com/video/IPtTpAoVQLLs/

Bill Gates was recently asked what he would do if he was President. His reply was as incoherent as you’d expect.

James Corbett spells out the reality: Why would Gates want to be the President of the USA when he (and a few others) already has control of whoever sits in the White House (and most other seats of ‘government’)?

Corbett thinks we have a very small window of opportunity now and that our only hope is non-compliance, starting with, for example, refusing masks, then vaccines etc although he says you have to draw your own lines in the sand.

He says everyone needs a plan for how they are going to cope with what is in store for us (AI, mass-surveillance, no civil liberties or society, everything online, UBI) and the implications for trying to carve out any existence outside the ‘matrix’.

He’s persuasive and I think not burying our heads is actually liberating. It clears the mind and strengthens our sense of purpose!

DressageRider
DressageRider
6 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW

More on the same topic in this article here:
https://www.globalresearch.ca/davos-great-reset/5715515

Awkward Git
Awkward Git
6 years ago

Found this video.

Bill Gates goes on about how him and Fauci talk a lot, the 1st and 2nd wave of vaccines, what to open when, getting people to wear masks etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OX_jYEI6Z3Q&feature=emb_logo

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/09/900490301/covid-19-may-never-go-away-with-or-without-a-vaccine?t=1597052274682

“Vineet Menachery, a coronavirus researcher at the University of Texas Medical Branch, told NPR’s Weekend Edition that one of the more likely scenarios is that the spread of COVID-19 will eventually be slowed as a result of herd immunity. He said that he’d be surprised “if we’re still wearing masks and 6-feet distancing in two or three years” and that in time, the virus could become no more serious than the common cold.”

Julian
Julian
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

“he’d be surprised “if we’re still wearing masks and 6-feet distancing in two or three years” “

Let’s hope he’s right. But he’s probably basing that on his medical opinion rather than on politics.

Gerry Mandarin
Gerry Mandarin
6 years ago
Reply to  Julian

There will another cold/flu virus to worry about by then…

Cicatriz
Cicatriz
6 years ago
Reply to  Julian

Let’s hope there’s still a functioning society by then.

We’re covid-free but have a million homeless, ten million unemployed and a million excess deaths from all-causes. Let’s give ourselves a pat on the back for getting through this together.

MiriamW
MiriamW
6 years ago
Reply to  Julian

I hope he’s wrong. It needs to stop now!

MiriamW
MiriamW
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

2 or 3 years? That’s all right then!

Peter Thompson
Peter Thompson
6 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW

Seems like Sweden has acquired herd immunity in 2-3 months. Never work masks. Don’t get taken in by the pro mask propaganda.

MiriamW
MiriamW
6 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

You think my comment meant that I was taken in? 🙂 🙂

IanE
IanE
6 years ago
Reply to  MiriamW

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm there???

MiriamW
MiriamW
6 years ago
Reply to  IanE

Moi? 😉

stewart
stewart
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

It’s already not more serious than the common cold for most people, so no need to wait.

Rick H
Rick H
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

“COVID-19 will eventually be slowed as a result of herd immunity.”

It’s happening already – the common shape of death/hospitalisation curves certainly didn’t arise from governmental wisdom.

Nick Rose
Nick Rose
6 years ago
Reply to  Rick H

Especially with the different levels of intervention in different countries. If any of those were effective, it would show in the graphs. The only thing that shows is countries with very sparse populations have a stop-go chart.

guy153
guy153
6 years ago
Reply to  Rick H

Yes, months ago. If course it’s not a single event but you could see deaths slowing down in Spain immediately after the lockdown, well before the three weeks it “should” have taken. I was telling all my friends this and the next day one of them sent me a link to the Gupta paper. That showed sites referencing it which is how I found Lockdown Skeptics 🙂

IanE
IanE
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

Wow – does he really believe the mask-wearing is about Covid?

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

https://omni.se/illegala-skovlingen-skjuter-i-hojden-under-pandemin/a/K3OVMG

ft.com/content/b72e3969-522c-4e83-b431-c0b498754b2d
 
According to this article according to satellite survey the illegal deforestation has increased 77% since the beginning of the pandemic. The local economies in poor countries have collapsed and people must survive.(Mike Barrett,Scientific Chief,WWF) Thank you, WHO,Ferguson and your models.

DressageRider
DressageRider
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

This is the most depressing news, but sadly very predictable. No-one seems to be able to do any kind of joined up thinking.

Nick Rose
Nick Rose
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

Exactly. Their foolish, blind interference has led to hardship here, God only knows what things are like in countries who are already poor.

More ammunition for the courts. That’s the only silver lining. Our politicians must be held to account for what was done here. The academics responsible MUST be held to account for the misery their stupidity has inflicted upon the world.

Paul
Paul
6 years ago

I don’t know if I am reading too much into it but in my part of the East Midlands there has been a large rise in the number of emergency vehicles,mainly Police cars,tearing about all day with sirens blaring.It is happening all day long and often involves a small convoy of vehicles,the strange thing is there are never any reports of accidents or incidents and believe me there are some real busybodies around here who never miss a thing and always post it on social media.
This started happening a couple of weeks or so ago around the same time as the government fear project started to step up again,the same thing started happening at dawn on the first day of lockdown in March and lasted for a couple of weeks.To me it seems like a way of maintaining a high level of fear in the public,even I am starting to find the wailing of sirens around town all through the day,every twenty minutes or so,a bit disconcerting

Lili
Lili
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

Nothing would surprise me.

guy153
guy153
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

Near the start of the lockdown I saw a bunch of police around and stopped to ask what they were up to. I was reassured that they were just staking out some travellers with a view to beating them up. Business as usual. My impression was they were a bit bored as initially crime went down. I suspect they will be soon be quite busy though.

Tom Blackburn
Tom Blackburn
6 years ago
Reply to  guy153

They aren’t nicking anyone because the courts can’t process them….

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

The week before lockdown and 2-3 weeks into it Ambulances were driving around, not at speed, with sirens blaring despite there being little and soon no other traffic about.
I did not see any parked outside nursing or private homes.
Nor were they going to the hospitals, the designated but uncommissioned emergency morgue or the Covid recovery hotel.

I concluded they were being used to keep lockdown population in a state of fear.

Sarigan
Sarigan
6 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

We still get them regularly here and I am determined to follow one soon and see just where they go and what they do.

Arkansas
Arkansas
6 years ago
Reply to  Sarigan

Just what I was thinking: someone with a dashcam who spots one should tail it for an hour or so. (And perhaps if feeling brave, after realising it’s just driving around making a noise, knock on the window when parked and ask what the deal is.)

Sarigan
Sarigan
6 years ago
Reply to  Arkansas

I have ordered a dashcam. I will do this.

Farinances
Farinances
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

Same here. There are more sirens round here by a factor of…… Ten than there ever were before corona. I’m fairly sure that what the doctor whistleblowing said about empty ambulances being driven around is true. (They are ambulance sirens, not police or fire).

Arkansas
Arkansas
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

The same thing has been happening in Edinburgh: suddenly lots of ambulances making lots of noise, throughout the day and early evening, as of about two weeks ago.

Arkansas
Arkansas
6 years ago
Reply to  Arkansas

I’m sure there are quite a few of us about. Lots of unofficial sceptics partying on the Meadows and at Portobello, for example.

richard
richard
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

Same thing up here in Norfolk – hearing more sirens than ever before and seeing more ambulances around on the roads

sue
sue
6 years ago
Reply to  Paul

i thought the same that seemed to be more sirens during the lockdown!
It wouldn’t surprise me if they put up speakers for a public address system to indoctrinate the plebs with controlling messages!

Aremen
Aremen
6 years ago

Hopefully, my many previous posts on here have established my anti-lockdown credentials. I say this because I’ve copied below a pro-anti-social distancing, pro-mask document which I think readers will nevertheless find interesting. This was given to me by a neighbour who has fully bought into the “we’re doomed” mindset. I have scanned it as a pdf, un-pdf’ed it and corrected some of the grammatical mistakes both in the original and caused by the un-pdf’ing process to make it readable. The wording is still clumsy in places. I say this because I’m suspicious of it. The grammar and syntax are poor. It may therefore be a spoof circulating the internet. Nevertheless, the notions in it seem worthy of consideration, even if the concluding exhortations are not what we would agree with.

A professor of pharmacy at U of Toronto sent this clearly worded update to his family.

For this pandemic there’s a greater chance of survival for those getting infected 3 months later, like June 2020, than those who got infected 3 months earlier, say February 2020. The reason for this is that Doctors and scientists know more about COVID-19 now than 3 months ago, and hence are able to treat… Read more »

Peter Thompson
Peter Thompson
6 years ago
Reply to  Aremen

That is an example of corona horror propaganda and is worthy only of the bin. 80 % of people who are infected are asymptomatic .

Mark II
Mark II
6 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

It’s true though that you’re more likely to get better treatment now than before. It does indeed totally fail to point out how many people are only mild or completely symptom-free (ie – immune) which is where it becomes deliberately misleading.

But everything that is stated renders that last sentence complete garbage. Why should anyone continue to wear masks and stay away from each other if there are, by what is said before, now reliable treatment methods?

Aremen
Aremen
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark II

Yes, I know!
“there’s nothing to panic about Covid-19… Let’s continue to follow precautions, wear masks and practise social distancing” FFS!
The neighbour who gave me the document (printed out for her by someone else) is elderly, has asthma, is overweight, and is frightened. She relies on buses to get about. She hates wearing a mask, so has decided to buy a visor instead (is that an allowed alternative to a mask on buses?). I asked her why she is wearing a mask, other than that she has to. She said “to stop me from getting the virus” (which of course is not the government’s stated purpose, which is to stop the wearer from infecting others). I said “Do you think the virus only travels in straight lines? It will go up your visor”. I also pointed out immediately, in an attempt at reassurance, that, according to Zoe Covid, only 25,000 people in this country are currently infected. But it’s like talking to a brick wall. And she is a very highly educated graduate (of the old school, when university degrees meant something). As with so many others, she just glazes over when I try and challenge the basis of… Read more »

Annie
Annie
6 years ago
Reply to  Aremen

That’s exactly how it works. A totem, a lucky charm, a fetish, voodoo.

guy153
guy153
6 years ago
Reply to  Aremen

If there was an epidemic going on like the one we had a few months back, a visor would probably work better than a mask. It will stop droplets better and neither works if the virus is airborne. It’s also less unpleasant and less likely to be harmful.

Nigel Sherratt
Nigel Sherratt
6 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Classic Chi-Com/Big Parma black propaganda. Pushing all the ‘right drugs’ (statins for bonus points!). Just enough snippets of truth to draw you in, like fragments of RNA in a PCR test.

guy153
guy153
6 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

Right but all those things are true or close enough for the 0.5% or so of infections who need hospitalisation. I thought the prone position thing was known about before Covid actually.

Nobody2021
Nobody2021
6 years ago
Reply to  guy153

I think the point Peter is making is that by focusing on this small subset people reading it will think this is the norm for everyone.

guy153
guy153
6 years ago
Reply to  Nobody2021

Yes the document, which seems to have been intended to reassure people, should have mentioned that if you get infected you only have a 0.5% chance or so of needing any of this.

Sylvie
Sylvie
6 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

And others here may find this shocking, but to be brutally honest, if I were 83, the mean age of UK deaths (not quite there yet!) I would prefer to be treated for pain and enabled to die in peace of lack of oxygen, than pumped full of steroids, laid prone, and/or put on an oxygen line.

RichardJames
RichardJames
6 years ago
Reply to  Aremen

…Aaaaaaaand we had this on our research website months ago. Mainstream doctors are not only the last to know about treatments (becoz its not evidense-based sience, innit) but also because their administrators (who really need to be hanged, but of course will evade all responsibility, hiding behind the surgeons and nurses who are actually doing the work) won’t let them use cheap and effective treatments because they are “waiting for the much more lucrative vaccine”.

Nobody2021
Nobody2021
6 years ago

I have noticed a lot of broken windows on my daily walks recently. Pure speculation but I think mask wearing has emboldened people to do such things as vandalism and other petty crimes under the guise of anonymity. It can only really escalate.

Another unintended consequence?

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  Nobody2021

Mrs 2-6 was working in her care home in peak lockdown and a masked up hoody smashed in the windows of the care home while they were inside with a baseball bat and ran off. Cops thought it was related to another flat, either the guy got the wrong flat or he did their windows to show he could do the target flats windows too. Another flat in the same block got targeted a short while later too. Obviously Mrs 2-6 was very traumatised. Just horrible for her.

Yes masked-up windows smashing I think is on the up.

Edward
Edward
6 years ago
Reply to  Nobody2021

Last week I saw four youths on two motor cycles illegally riding across a public park. They were all masked up using black scarves across the lower part of their faces.

DressageRider
DressageRider
6 years ago

OMG – that apostrophe !

IMoz
IMoz
6 years ago

I wonder how many are now wearing masks to hide their mask-induced sores, dry skin, candidiasis, contact/perioral dermatitis, etc?..

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  IMoz

Like QE1 whose lead based makeup caused her terrible skin conditions that had to be hidden with. . .

IMoz
IMoz
6 years ago
Reply to  karenovirus

That sounds like a great business plan! 😉

stewart
stewart
6 years ago

One more nail in the coffin of freedom and democracy today: free speech advocate and billionaire Jimmy Lai arrested in HK together with employees of his newspaper under the new Chinese security laws.

Most people will feel this is far away from us, but it isn’t. Our government has already adopted Chinese totalitarian practices – lockdowns and micro-management of our daily lives, compulsory masks.

“Hate speech” laws and regulations are already suffocating free speech. 100% digital currency is around the corner, which means total financial control of every individual via the banks.

The western world doesn’t just import Chinese goods anymore, it is importing Chinese totalitarian government.

IMoz
IMoz
6 years ago
Reply to  stewart

If, say, the Russians, were paying someone in the UK to instigate riots, would you oppose the arrest of that instigator?

Mark
Mark
6 years ago
Reply to  IMoz

People here generally don’t understand that our government interfering in other countries’ affairs is just as cynical and obnoxious as the reverse. They just think it’s “promoting freedom” or some such, and the groups that are “on our side” are necessarily good.

IMoz
IMoz
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark

People forgot what actually started the HK riots: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Poon_Hiu-wing

stewart
stewart
6 years ago
Reply to  IMoz

Yes I would oppose it, for a simple reason. Who gets to decide what constitutes instigation? “Instigate a riot” sounds very simple and straight forward but it isn’t. I’ve seen comments on this site about taking things “into our own hands” etc. Is that instigation? Is a half joking, half serious comment about armed insurrection instigating a riot?

Ultimately I don’t trust anyone making judgments for all of us about what constitutes instigation.

IMoz
IMoz
6 years ago
Reply to  stewart

How about receiving funds and using those funds to directly counsel, procure, air, or abet, because that’s what I think the Chinese’s problem with that guy are…

Gerry Mandarin
Gerry Mandarin
6 years ago
Reply to  stewart

It is astonishing how the government have been so willing to implement it & how easily they have got away with it. It is truly the actions of a totalitarian state where individual freedom has been cast aside.

Mark II
Mark II
6 years ago
Reply to  Gerry Mandarin

All these years Lab/Lib Dems have pretended they were for liberal policies in the face of Tories chipping away at our freedoms (the snoopers charter, banning porn etc) at it turns out all the Tories had to do was take a leaf out of the Simpsons and screech ‘won’t somebody think of the children!’ and blather on about it being for our own good and grannies health that they take away everything from us.

That they’re all equally culpable in this is probably the most worrying thing – there is no where to turn and no one to represent us… and yet still the vast majority of the public are cheering their own demise. The only person I’ve managed to ‘turn’ is my Mum, who now sees that it’s mostly bullshit, but both her (and my wife, as it happens) still bow to the mask mandate for fear of fines – which is probably very common. I’ve simply not been in a shop since it came in, though wish I had the courage of others on here to do it, I have no ‘real’ exemption to fall back on should anyone really bother me – very mild asthma [no pump… Read more »

Mark
Mark
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark II

The trick is to understand the worst that can happen and accept it. I’ve yet to wear a mask, don’t wear an exemption “permit”, and haven’t had any problems yet. But if they come, I’ll deal with them.

There are two potential things that could happen if you don’t wear a mask in a supermarket (where the staff have now pretty much all been told not to question people). First, there could be a confrontation with another customer. Those you can deal with as you would any other possible public confrontation – escalate or deescalate as you prefer.

The second is that in theory (my impression is that this is vanishingly rare, and may not be happening at all) you could be confronted by police. If so, just tell them you are exempt and who you are and refuse to tell them anything else. In particular, decline to say why you are exempt and explain that you understand you are not required to do so because the information’s private. You’re more likely to suffer from telling a lie to the police than refusing to give them information. The worst they can do is issue you with a ticket. You can… Read more »

Mark II
Mark II
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I’m envious of your confidence but hopefully I will get round to doing it soon.

I’ve always hated confrontation of any kind. Though I have to deal with it sometimes through no choice of mine (as a cyclist I’ve had people quite literally drive their car at me on the wrong side of the road, deliberately cut me up etc and then get out to scream at me for no reason) it usually leaves me physically shaking – a bit of both adrenaline & fear I guess. My fear is some jumped up loon who is so convinced I’m a potential threat to their life will end up literally shouting at me in the middle of a shop, whilst walking away there would be an option, the embarrassment & humiliation is an unpleasant thought. I know it’s unlikely, but it’s a lot more likely than any of us dying of Covid itself haha!

Mark
Mark
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark II

This was posted here yesterday, it’s quite good at pointing out the error of allowing fear to rule us:

How to Be More Afraid!
I know it’s easy for me to say it and a lot harder to do it, but… just do it.

Most likely nothing bad will happen. If the worst does happen, how bad is it, really? Does it help to reason that you are making the same mistake as the coronapanickers here? (I mean in terms of logic, obviously unlike them you aren’t inflicting massive damage on society).

Take an exemption printout with you first time. It might give you additional deescalation options should you feel the need for them.

Klein
Klein
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark

Hi Mark – spot on. It is something I learnt in regards to overcoming OCD. The only way to do so is expose yourself to the fear / uncertainty.
I’m going to get a coffee and visit the shop in a bit, and face the fear! Thanks mate

Mark
Mark
6 years ago
Reply to  Klein

Shabash, mate!

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Klein

It’s their fear Klein, don’t be a prisoner of it, as someone said here a while back.

Youth_Unheard
Youth_Unheard
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark II

You can always try following this toolkit as well, giving you all the info you need to back you up
http://laworfiction.com/2020/07/face-covering-litigation-threats-and-administrative-headache/

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Youth_Unheard

Yup, got the pdf of the rules

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark II

Just be brave the first time MarkII, then it’s like riding a bike.

Two-Six
Two-Six
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark

It doesn’t matter if you do get a ticket from the cops, its like a parking fine or driving in a bus lane or dropping litter. A fixed penalty notice. No criminal record.

karenovirus
karenovirus
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark

I would go to Court for non payment of fine, I would then produce medical evidence of my conditions = Case Dismissed.

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