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Welcome to the Hotel… Quarantine

The Sunday Times reports that the UK is set to copy countries such as New Zealand and introduce mandatory hotel quarantine for all arrivals into the country, replacing what has hitherto been a requirement only to go home directly and self-isolate there:

Ministers have ordered plans to be drawn up for a fresh crackdown at Britain’s borders to stop new variants of the coronavirus undermining the vaccination effort.

Officials have been told to prepare for the creation of quarantine hotels for those arriving in Britain and to use GPS and facial-recognition technology to check that people are staying in isolation.

This is a significant change in policy and comes as the Government is simultaneously downplaying suggestions that the various mutations of the virus may be resistant to the vaccine when talking about their ongoing roll-out of it to millions of Brits, and, at the same time, using precisely those fears to justify more travel restrictions.

Last week officials were ordered to study New Zealand’s policy of “directed isolation”, where everyone arriving is charged for a stay at an airport hotel and forced to remain in isolation for two weeks.

In Australia it is between 14 and 24 days, with travellers charged between £1,500 and £2,500. The UK Government is only considering a system where visitors pay the costs themselves.

Civil servants will also examine how to emulate a scheme in Poland, where those told to isolate are subject to “enhanced monitoring”. Each person is contacted once a day and told to send a photograph of themselves at the location where they are confined. These are cross-referenced using GPS data and facial-recognition software. Those who fail to comply within 20 minutes receive a visit from police.

It is understood that ministers discussed both ideas at a meeting on Thursday. A senior Government source said that, if used, this technology would be confined to new arrivals in the UK, not those told to self-isolate who are already here.

The plans go further than changes announced last week that require everyone coming to the UK to produce a negative Covid test. “Air corridors”, which allowed some people to come in more easily, were scrapped.

Cabinet sources said Matt Hancock, the Health Secretary, floated a moratorium on all international travel for a month, to stop new variants in their tracks, but faced resistance from Grant Shapps, the Transport Secretary, on the grounds it would cripple trade.

Concerns that the pandemic response has been accompanied by a tendency towards China-style surveillance won’t be assuaged by these plans to require a digital ‘minder’ in the room at all times.

If these variants are to be treated with such extreme caution now, for fear that the vaccines provide no immunity to them, how will normal travel ever resume, given that new strains are bound to keep emerging and vaccines can only be developed and manufactured so quickly?

Worth reading in full.

Lord Sumption and Dr John Lee on The Big Questions

Nicky Campbell hosting the BBC’s discussion show

Sunday morning’s edition of The Big Questions, the BBC’s ethical, moral, and religious discussion show, which has returned in a socially distanced format, featured two prominent lockdown sceptics: Lord Jonathan Sumption and Dr John Lee. It was noteworthy for having being one of the first instances of a broadcast debate on lockdowns with participants physically present (although not the audience). The panel included various representatives of the full spectrum of opinion on lockdowns, including Professor Calum Semple from the University of Liverpool, Imam Asada Zaman from the Muslim Youth Foundation, Maddy Mussen, assistant editor at The TAB, as well as a strong ally to the sceptic cause, and Shelagh McNerney from the Academy of Ideas, among others.

Much was made afterwards of Lord Sumption’s remarks about the “value of life”. He made the common-sense observation near the top of the programme that we should attribute less ‘value’ to the life of an older person than a younger one, and made reference to the familiar concept of Quality-Adjusted Life Years (QALYs) used by health services worldwide.

“All lives are not of equal value because the older you are, the less life you have left,” he said.

He then faced repeated rebukes from other panellists, including from Deborah James, a sufferer from Stage 4 bowel cancer, who claimed Sumption had essentially declared that her own life was worthless.

“I’m the person who you say their life is not valuable,” she said, at which point Lord Sumption interrupted her: “I didn’t say it wasn’t valuable, I said it was less valuable.”

She then responded: “Who are you to put a value on life? In my view and I think in the view of many other people, all life is sacred and I don’t think you should make these judgement calls.”

A torrent of pearl-clutching followed on social media, with a stream of Twitter users sharing edited excerpts from the programme and condemning Sumption as a “fascist” or “eugenicist”. Even the Daily Mail ran a piece claiming “former Supreme Court judge Lord Sumption today told a Stage 4 bowel cancer sufferer that her life was ‘less valuable’ than others”.

He did say that, but he was nonetheless misunderstood. The concept of QALYs has been developed so we can make value judgements when facing difficult medical choices in a way which doesn’t commit the cardinal sin Lord Sumption was accused of, namely, making a subjective judgement about how much value to place on a person’s life. Instead, it attaches a value to a unit of a person’s life – a year – and then adjusts that value according to the quality of life that they will have during that year. It doesn’t take into account what sort of person they are, their values, what they do with their time, etc. So he didn’t say Deborah James’s life was “less valuable” in the judgemental sense he was accused of. Rather, he was saying it was only less valuable than, say, a healthy young person because she won’t live as long and her quality of life during her remaining time won’t be very high.

The fact that Lord Sumption’s remarks were greeted with such shock – both on the programme and afterwards – is due to people’s ignorance of health economics. They are apparently unaware that health economists make these sort of calculations all the time – as do the heads of intensive care units in hospitals when they triage a patient. Indeed, the people answering emergency calls make these life-and-death decisions on an hourly basis, dispatching ambulances to some callers but not to others. As Dr John Lee pointed out, “Not making these decisions is a luxury health economists don’t have.”

It was a shame Nicky Campbell, the show’s host, didn’t do more to clarify this misunderstanding.

Nevertheless, the programme is worth watching in full.

One in Six Covid Patients Caught Disease in Hospital

One in six patients have been infected in hospital, according to David Rose and Laura Dodsworth in today’s Daily Mail.

More than 25,000 patients have caught coronavirus in hospital since the second wave of the pandemic began in September.

One in six COVID-19 patients in NHS hospitals in England were infected while being treated for other conditions, according to internal Health Service figures.

So far this month, 5,684 Covid-positive in-patients out of 44,315 – about one in eight – were infected after being admitted for other conditions.

An intensive care consultant in the Midlands said that he took a “snapshot” of all the patients in his unit on one day last month and found that 40% of them had been infected in hospital.

A specialist Covid nurse treating people at home said many of her patients had contracted the virus in hospital and were re-admitted when their conditions worsened.

The nosocomial nature of the disease has been a cause for concern since the start, with such experts as Dr John Ioannidis were making the point as early as March 2020. It’s also been flagged up frequently by the senior doctor who writes regularly for Lockdown Sceptics.

David Oliver, an NHS Consultant, recently wrote in the BMJ:

Hospitals are currently in the eye of a COVID-19 storm, driven by a rapid rise in community infection rates and more new emergency cases presenting daily. But before the current surge there were concerns about Covid infection acquired or identified during a hospital stay.

In October the Healthcare Safety Investigation Branch (HSIB) issued a report on the factors behind hospital acquired COVID-19 infections in England last spring. We now have better access to testing and personal protective equipment (PPE). We have better knowledge from research and guidelines. But the rates of Covid infection officially classified as “hospital acquired” have yet to fall.

NHS hospitals are fielding formal complaints from people angry and distressed that they, or a family member, may have contracted infection in what they expect to be a place of safety. Teams battling to deliver clinical care in a highly pressurised environment and at some personal risk will be sent down a distracting, demoralising warren of complaint handling and root cause analysis, for something that can seem inevitable and out of our control.

Sir Simon Stevens’s Interview with Andrew Marr

The senior doctor who regularly contributes to Lockdown Sceptics has given us this reaction to the interview given by NHS Chief Executive Sir Simon Stephens on the Andrew Marr Show yesterday.

Yesterday, Simon Stevens was interviewed by Andrew Marr on the BBC. He used two statistics to illustrate the pressure the NHS was under. Firstly, that one Covid patient was admitted to hospital every 30 seconds and that there were 15,000 extra Covid inpatients in English hospitals since Christmas Day.

Is this true?

One patient every 30 seconds is the equivalent of 2,880 Covid patients per 24-hour period. The most recent figures show that the “total reported admissions to hospital” released on the daily hospital situation report have been in excess of 2,880 every day since December 29th.

However, the “admissions from the community” are lower than this figure and have only been above the 2,880 threshold since January 4th. The NHS is typically opaque at defining what these terms mean. I take the difference between the two figures to indicate the number of patients contracting Covid in hospital.

With respect to the statement about the total number of inpatients, it is correct that on Christmas Day there were approximately 17,000 Covid inpatients and that number is now 32,000.

What Simon Stevens forgot to mention was that patients are also being discharged from hospital. The discharge information is only disclosed in the monthly data packet and we only have information up to January 6th.

The problem the NHS has is in managing the flow of patients through the hospital. Simply put, there are more patients coming in or catching Covid in hospital than there are going out. Some of this problem is just bad luck because of the viral spread – some of it is NHS inefficiency.

I have displayed the relevant information in Graph 1 below. This a complicated graphic with two different Y axes, so I will explain:

Firstly, note the orange bars – these are “admissions from the community”. In other words, the patients coming through the doors every day with Covid. The blue bars are “new Covid hospital patients – admissions plus positive tests in hospital”. The NHS does not explicitly acknowledge that there are any patients acquiring Covid in hospital, but I take this to mean that the difference between the orange and the blue bars are the numbers of nosocomial infections every day. Any time the blue line crosses 2,800 on the left-hand side Y axis, the rate of admission per 24 hours is one patient every 30 seconds.

Graph 1.

Next, observe the yellow line. This is the daily rate of hospital discharge of Covid patients. You can see that this is quite a low number over Christmas Day and Boxing Day – patients are very rarely discharged on bank holidays or at weekends. 

In the week before Christmas, discharges were running at about 1,200 per day – or in Simon Stevens soundbite speak, “one discharge every 72 seconds”. The yellow line picks up after Christmas, dips again over new year then rises to 2,400 per day by January 5th – or “one discharge every 36 seconds”.

The problem is that the yellow line is always below the level of the blue bars, so the total number of Covid patients is always rising. Have a look at the gray line using the right-hand Y axis, showing a rise from 17,000 on December 25th to 32,000 by January 16th.

We are not allowed to know where the yellow discharge line currently stands. These figures are available but will not disclosed by the NHS until mid-February.

Patients that have recovered from Covid may not be discharged for a variety of reasons. I have covered these before in previous posts. The principal problems are that care homes are reluctant to take patients back from hospitals because of what happened in the Spring. Some patients do not want to go home as they have vulnerable relatives who are shielding. Some may not have anyone at home and may be too frail to look after themselves. This is a perennial problem in the NHS and is exacerbated every winter. Despite having six months to prepare for an expected winter crisis, the NHS didn’t prepare for this eventuality. I don’t recall Andrew Marr asking Simon Stevens to explain why.

If the yellow discharge line rises above the blue bars, then the total number of inpatients on the gray line would start to fall and the pressure on hospitals would reduce.

For some reason Simon Stevens forgot to mention that – but it’s not a very snappy soundbite. 

More On Harms to Children

Yesterday we flagged up the Sunday Times article by Dr Vanessa Moulton describing the huge increase in mental health issues she is witnessing among children in her clinic. Sadly, news of the mounting impact of lockdowns on children comes thick and fast at the moment. The New York Times has a piece by Matt Richtel on the upward trend in children’s screen addictions, which were already a serious cause for concern among many experts before the Covid crisis.

The day after New Year’s, John Reichert of Boulder, CO, had a heated argument with his 14 year-old son, James. “I’ve failed you as a father,” he told the boy despairingly.

During the long months of lockdowns and shuttered schools, Mr. Reichert, like many parents, overlooked the vastly increasing time that his son was spending on video games and social media. Now, James, who used to focus his free time on mountain biking and playing basketball, devotes nearly all of his leisure hours – about 40 a week – to Xbox and his phone. During their argument, he pleaded with his father not to restrict access, calling his phone his “whole life”.

“That was the tipping point. His whole life?” said Mr. Reichert, a technical administrator in the local sheriff’s office. “I’m not losing my son to this.”

Nearly a year into the coronavirus pandemic, parents across the country – and the world – are watching their children slide down an increasingly slippery path into an all-consuming digital life. When the outbreak hit, many parents relaxed restrictions on screens as a stopgap way to keep frustrated, restless children entertained and engaged. But, often, remaining limits have vaporized as computers, tablets and phones became the centerpiece of school and social life, and weeks of stay-at-home rules bled into nearly a year.

The situation is alarming parents, and scientists too.

“There will be a period of epic withdrawal,” said Keith Humphreys, a Professor of Psychology at Stanford University, an addiction expert and a former senior adviser to President Barack Obama on drug policy. It will, he said, require young people to “sustain attention in normal interactions without getting a reward hit every few seconds”.

Experts voice further concerns about addiction later in the article.

Recent neuroimaging research suggests heavy use of certain video games may cause brain changes linked to addictive behaviors. One of the study’s authors, Christian Montag, a Professor of Molecular Physiology at Ulm University, also co-authored a recent overview of digital use during the COVID-19 pandemic, published last month in Addictive Behavior Reports. It reported that German teens are playing video games with much greater frequency than before lockdown and concluded “that overuse of digital technologies represents a likely phenomenon and outcome of the COVID-19 pandemic”.

Dr Humphreys, from Stanford, said he believed that adults and children alike could, with disciplined time away from devices, learn to disconnect. But doing so has become complicated by the fact that the devices now are at once vessels for school, social life, gaming and other activities central to life.

These psychological concerns are not the only ones to have been raised. A paper entitled: “Digital Screen Time During the COVID-19 Pandemic: Risk for a Further Myopia Boom?” published in the American National Centre for Biotechnology Information (NCBI) last summer drew attention to looming problems with eyesight, concluding in its abstract:

Increased digital screen time, near work, and limited outdoor activities were found to be associated with the onset and progression of myopia, and could potentially be aggravated during and beyond the COVID-19 pandemic outbreak period. While school closures may be short-lived, increased access to, adoption of, and dependence on digital devices could have a long-term negative impact on childhood development. Raising awareness among parents, children, and government agencies is key to mitigating myopigenic behaviors that may become entrenched during this period.

Stop Press: Christina Lamb wrote in yesterday’s Sunday Times about the stresses faced by the children of poor families in Tower Hamlets in the East End of London.

When Rekha Begum’s seven year-old son Moussa showed her what he had written on the “hope tree” he was asked to draw for school, she cried. He had written: “A house.” “I felt so bad,” she said. Begum, 40, who is disabled, lives with her four children, aged from seven to 21, in a cramped second-floor flat on a council estate in Tower Hamlets, east London, one of the most deprived – and Covid-infected – parts of Britain.

From the end of the street, past a patch of grass littered with discarded syringes, where Moussa once picked up a condom, the gleaming glass towers of Canary Wharf, the headquarters of leading banks and finance companies, can be seen on the horizon. It seems a world away. More than half of children in Tower Hamlets live in poverty.

A former carer, Begum shares a bed with Moussa. Her two other sons, aged 15 and 19, share a room, and her daughter sleeps on the sofa. “Nobody gets much sleep,” she shrugged.

Apart from Moussa, who is at primary school, one son is doing GCSEs and the two eldest children are university students. They have two laptops in total, including for Begum’s work as virtual assistant for a cab company, and she fears her children are falling behind – disastrous on estates rife with gangs and drugs.

“I asked for another, but the teacher said, ‘You have two and many families don’t have one,’” Begum said.

Lockdown the third time round, with its cold, dark days and return to homeschooling, may feel harder than ever – the novelty of baking sourdough, Yoga with Adriene, or Zoom cocktails long having worn off for many – but for families such as Begum’s and others in London’s poorest borough, it is unimaginable.

I was shocked when I first met these families last April to see how different life was in lockdown from mine, with a garden and plenty of space, and have stayed in touch with them since.

Nine months on – more than half of them spent under lockdown – many households are reaching breaking point. “I feel like a small boat being tossed about with dangerous waters all around,” said Begum. “We’re all feeling suffocated, both physically but also mentally.”

Such is the mental toll that a few months ago her eldest son went to Shadwell Basin and tried to throw himself into the Thames.

Worth reading in full.

Care Home Staff Face Sack After Shunning Vaccine

The Sunday Times reports that:

The National Care Association has taken the unprecedented step of seeking a legal opinion on whether care home workers can be made to accept vaccination after thousands refused. Between 6% and 8% of the 1.5 million adult social care workforce in England are declining jabs, despite the number of coronavirus cases in care homes trebling in the past month, according to industry reporting of uptake across the country.

This is a fairly small proportion compared the general population. With 92-94% declaring themselves willing to get the jab, it could be seen as a rather drastic approach to try to force 100% compliance. If successful, it may also set a worrying precedent for other employers considering a similar approach – the so-called ‘no jab, no job’ policy. The piece continues with poll data:

The development comes as a poll reveals that only 41% of 18- to 34-year-olds say they will “definitely” take the vaccine. In the survey by the research data company Focaldata, the percentage of people who say they will definitely have the jab increases in line with age.

Among 18 to 24-year-olds, just over one in three (36%) say they will definitely be inoculated against the virus, rising to 44% among 25- to 34-year-olds, 56% among 35- to 44-year-olds, 71%- among 45 to 64-year-olds and 90% among those aged 65 and above.

Ethnic minorities are even less likely than young people to say they will take the vaccine, with just a third (33%) committed to having the jab.

Overall, one in six people are opposed to having the jab – with women more hesitant than men. The poll reveals that 60% of women and 69% of men will definitely take the vaccine. The proportion of the population that must be infected or inoculated to achieve “herd immunity” is uncertain, but it is likely to be more than 80%.

People in Greater London are the most cautious about having the vaccine, with just 41% of those asked saying they will definitely have the jab, followed by those in the East Midlands (52%) and West Midlands (56%).

Scotland has the highest percentage of people willing to have the jab, with 78% who will definitely have the vaccine.

The Government may have a challenge on its hands regarding the remarkable vaccine scepticism among ethnic minorities. Having been at pains to emphasise the higher risk faced on average by BAME people during the pandemic, and after a year of heightened tension around Black Lives Matter and race issues, it’s conceivable that a Tory government could find it politically unpalatable to be seen to move in the direction of direct or indirect coercion against the expressed will of two-thirds of the BAME community.

The Chairwoman of the National Care Association, Nadra Ahmed, outlined some of the reasons given by care staff for their reticence:

Ahmed said although the proportion of staff refusing to take the vaccine had fallen since the roll-out began, the figures were still a concern. “I think we started with between 15% and 18% of the workforce, we were being told, who were reluctant to have it, but I think that it’s dropped to about 8%.

“We are also hearing that some of them are based around reasons that are religious, or they’ve got conditions, or it’s a fear… Very few are conspiracy theory types, but there are [some] within the numbers that we’ve been told about.

“Even one [care worker turning down the vaccine] is more than we would want. We’ve asked for a legal opinion on it – we’re just waiting for that legal opinion to come through.”

The poll reveals the two most common reasons people are opposed to the jab is concern the “vaccines have been rushed through” (45%) and “wanting to wait until more people have had it to see if it is safe” (35%).

Lack of trust in institutions and authorities plays a larger part than the more extreme conspiracy theories. One in five (21%) mention a lack of trust in the pharmaceutical companies that made the vaccine as a reason for their opposition, while one in six (16%) “don’t trust the people who want us to take the vaccine”.

One in five (21%) of those sceptical about taking a vaccine say that this because they believe “the side effects and potential risks of the vaccine are worse than the disease itself”, while just over one in 10 (13%) “would rather let nature take its course”.

Worth reading in full.

A Wittgensteinian Writes…

Ludwig Wittgenstein

We are publishing a piece today entitled “Why We Shouldn’t Moralise Means to Moral Ends” by Ben Hawkins, a trainee lawyer with an interest in the philosophy of Ludwig Wittgenstein.

There’s an excellent Mitchell and Webb sketch in which a pair of ministerial aides are reporting back to their minister on potential solutions for dealing with a recession… “raising VAT, cutting VAT, raising interest rates, raising interest rates and VAT, lowering income tax and raising VAT”. But despite their efforts, they haven’t been able to land on anything – when their proposed measures are put through their computer models, none of them seems to work. Suddenly the minister interrupts. “Have you tried ‘kill all the poor’?” When the shocked aides protest the minister replies, “I’m not saying do it, I’m just saying run it through the computer ­– see if it would work.”

Whilst undoubtedly a broadside aimed at the austerity policies of the time, the sketch works as it highlights a feature of our moral reflexes that is often overlooked: for most moral agents with genuinely held moral beliefs, it is not enough to avoid doing wrong; to merely consider doing that wrong action feels like a moral transgression in and of itself. A serious moral agent, believing that killing people is wrong, would never consider running “kill all the poor” through the computer, as doing so would seemingly violate the principle of the sanctity of life which the belief in not killing people upholds. As Robert Webb’s character shrieks exasperatedly when asked why he won’t just give it a go – “Because it’s offensive and evil!”

Worth reading in full.

Telegraph Letter

A reader spotted a good letter that appeared recently in the Telegraph.

SIR – I was recently speaking to a friend in South Africa, who told me that, every day, the government publishes the recovery rate of Covid patients, alongside the data on cases and deaths. This means that South Africans receive some good news – and are reminded that getting the virus is not a death sentence for most healthy citizens.

Our Government, by contrast, seems intent on delivering only the bad news. It’s time that we were given some perspective and hope.

Roger Woodgate
Wellingborough, Northamptonshire

NHS Worship: A Doctor Writes…

We are also publishing a piece called “Ruminating About the New Religion” by a medical doctor who writes under the pseudonym Dr J. Here is an excerpt:

In 2020, a new reformation has happened, hastened on by the ‘pandemic’, and credited to the good folk of China. The Church of England, no longer the nation’s moral compass or cultural centre, not only ceased to be the established church, but gladly ceded that title to the NHS, the new established Church in England. Venerable Cathedrals like Salisbury now close their doors to public worship opting for something on the Internet. Yet they open the doors to the new church, the NHS, and allow everyone in to be vaccinated, something that would ostensibly help ‘protect the NHS’. This followed from the example of See of Canterbury which in March first ordered all Churches to close and threatened all pastors with sanctions if they even thought about opening them or stepping inside. All of this was to protect the NHS and save lives. The NHS, the new established religion, must be protected at all costs, especially by the old established religion. No one is permitted to die, or at least not from Covid. And besides, the former CofE never had the time to tell followers how to do that well anyway.

The new head of the Church, our PM, duly appointed its new Archbishop, the Health Secretary, and he appointed and ceded all power to decide how the nation would live its life – or not – to his high priests, the collective heads of the health services and our new prognosticator in chief, Neil Ferguson. A new Parliament was established of course, now called SAGE, appointed to be the new theologians of this religion, instructing us on the reality of certain death if we don’t listen to and heed all they teach and say. In this newly established Church, all other institutions are insignificant – the family, religion, businesses, education, universities – and there will no longer be freedom of speech and freedom of conscience, democracy, or the right to challenge the established orthodoxy. If it’s not the NHS, it’s not important. If all heads of the health service don’t believe and preach it, then neither can you. If they believe and preach it, then you must as well.

The new heads of the newly established Church and its high priests and its theologians have instead decided to preach the doctrines through the pulpit of the BBC, and censor, ridicule, sideline, demonise and use their compliant members to enforce the orthodoxy in the press and on social media.

Worth reading in full.

The Wisdom of Martin Luther King

Today is Martin Luther King Day in the United States so we thought we’d share a quote from the good reverend.

You may be 38 years old, as I happen to be. And one day, some great opportunity stands before you and calls you to stand up for some great principle, some great issue, some great cause.

And you refuse to do it because you are afraid…Y ou refuse to do it because you want to live longer… You’re afraid that you will lose your job, or you are afraid that you will be criticized or that you will lose your popularity, or you’re afraid that somebody will stab you, or shoot at you or bomb your house; so you refuse to take the stand.

Well, you may go on and live until you are 90, but you’re just as dead at 38 as you would be at 90. And the cessation of breathing in your life is but the belated announcement of an earlier death of the spirit.

Ipso Ruling: More Reader Responses

Two more readers with scientific backgrounds have kindly sent in comments about the Ipso ruling against Toby which we reported on two days ago. We published the first set of responses yesterday.

Martin Evison PhD, a retired Science Professor formerly at Sheffield, Toronto, and Northumbria Universities, wrote:

I was disappointed to learn of the IPSO ruling, which I think is mistaken.

With regard to ‘herd immunity’, I refer you to Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, whose Q&A would appear to concur specifically with Toby’s comments in the Daily Telegraph regarding herd immunity and the proportion of the population needed to confer it (see the following):

“What is herd immunity?

When most of a population is immune to an infectious disease, this provides indirect protection – or herd immunity (also called herd protection) – to those who are not immune to the disease. For example, if 80% of a population is immune to a virus, four out of every five people who encounter someone with the disease won’t get sick (and won’t spread the disease any further). In this way, the spread of infectious diseases is kept under control. Depending how contagious an infection is, usually 50% to 90% of a population needs immunity to achieve herd immunity.” (Johns Hopkins School of Public Health)

The term ‘natural immunity’ is a little ambiguous, as it can be used i) to distinguish between pre-existing immunity and immunity conferred only following infection or vaccination; ii) to distinguish between vaccine-acquired immunity and immunity acquired without a vaccine, and iii) to distinguish between innate – including T-cell mediated – immunity and adaptive immunity mediated by antibodies – which I anticipate was Toby’s intended meaning. There is a substantial literature on the latter topic. Here is an accessible recent scientific summary.

If Toby is asserting that natural, T-cell mediated and other innate immunity – including that resulting from prior infection with other coronaviruses, combined with a level – say 17% seroprevalence – of adaptive immunity is probably sufficient to confer herd immunity in London – then this is at least a plausible hypothesis reflecting conventional wisdom.

If scientific uncertainty applies to one claim, then it must equally apply to its opposite – e.g. that natural, T-cell mediated and other innate immunity – including that resulting from prior infection with other coronaviruses, combined with a level – say 17 % seroprevalence – of adaptive immunity is probably insufficient to confer herd immunity in London. 

If Ipso want to preferentially silence one claim over the other, they need to say why and provide evidence supporting that opinion. 

It is at best unethical for the Government or its scientific advisers to pretend they are basing their decisions on certainties, where they do not exist. It seems, furthermore, that they are ignoring a number of certainties – or at any rate preponderance of evidence in their favour – that have become increasingly apparent since March 2020.

Gordon Burns, a retired Professor of Cancer Research who has a BSc in Biochemistry, a Postgraduate Diploma and Primary MRCPath in Microbiology, and a PhD from Cambridge with five years as a Postdoctoral Researcher in Immunology, writes:

The interviews published and the comments provided in the mainstream media on viral replication and the natural immune response are so utterly ignorant and such irresponsible misinformation that I feel obliged to comment. I will try to put things in lay terms.

First – contrary to public belief and propaganda on vaccines – viruses are not killed by antibodies. For the simple reason that – unlike bacteria and other living organisms – they are not living organisms and thus cannot be “killed”, whether by antibodies or anything else within the body.

Infectious respiratory viruses have an RNA core (for replication) and a protein coat. The protein coat consists of invariant structural proteins and the ’spike protein’ that contains within it the small peptide that constitutes the cell-binding domain (CBD).

Most structural proteins are shared by viral groups such as coronaviruses.

Upon primary infection of mucosal and epithelial cells in the bronchial tract, the infected cells in distress display the viral proteins at their cell surface. Structural and spike. Cytotoxic T-cells recognise these foreign proteins and kill the infected cells. These viral proteins (structural or spike) are remembered by the T-cells which survive for (almost) life as memory T-cells.

Killed cells release viral particles that are excreted or infect other cells until the battle is won. Never to progress further.

Thus, in many cases, viral infections never proceed beyond this stage and T-cell immunity is retained. The only antibodies generated at this site are IgM and IgA antibodies.

Immunisation, by contrast, induces IgG antibodies at a distal site. These can be deleterious to primary infections.

If you like, I can extrapolate further on the IgG response, but readers should be aware of the primary response explained above.

We’re grateful for these contributions, and any more expert readers are welcome to email us their responses.

Round-up

https://twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/1350903260245323781

Theme Tunes Suggested by Readers

Seven today: “So Lonely” by The Police, “Don’t Stand So Close to Me” by Sting, “Throw Away the Key” by Linx, “Behind the Mask” by Michael Jackson, “Hide Your Face” by Lynyrd Skynyrd, “Which Side Are You On?” by Pete Seeger, and “A Walk in the Park” by Nick Straker Band.

Love in the Time of Covid

We have created some Lockdown Sceptics Forums, including a dating forum called “Love in a Covid Climate” that has attracted a bit of attention. We have a team of moderators in place to remove spam and deal with the trolls, but sometimes it takes a little while so please bear with us. You have to register to use the Forums as well as post comments below the line, but that should just be a one-time thing. Any problems, email the Lockdown Sceptics webmaster Ian Rons here.

Sharing Stories

Some of you have asked how to link to particular stories on Lockdown Sceptics so you can share it. To do that, click on the headline of a particular story and a link symbol will appear on the right-hand side of the headline. Click on the link and the URL of your page will switch to the URL of that particular story. You can then copy that URL and either email it to your friends or post it on social media. Please do share the stories.

Social Media Accounts

You can follow Lockdown Sceptics on our social media accounts which are updated throughout the day. To follow us on Facebook, click here; to follow us on Twitter, click here; to follow us on Instagram, click here; to follow us on Parler, click here; and to follow us on MeWe, click here.

Woke Gobbledegook

We’ve decided to create a permanent slot down here for woke gobbledegook. Today, we have this opinion piece in the Washington Post by Cristina Beltrán entitled “To understand Trump’s support, we must think in terms of multiracial Whiteness”, wherein she burnishes her ‘anti-racist’ credentials by associating everything she dislikes with “whiteness”, which, she argues, is a quality that can be espoused by people who are not actually white. So progressive….

The Trump administration’s anti-immigration, anti-civil rights stance has made it easy to classify the President’s loyalists as a homogenous mob of white nationalists. But take a look at the FBI’s posters showing people wanted in the insurrectionist assault on the US Capitol: Among the many White faces are a few that are clearly Latino or African American.

Such diversity highlights the fact that President Trump’s share of the Latino vote in November actually rose over 2016, notwithstanding years of incendiary rhetoric targeting Mexicans and other Latino communities. Yes, Trump’s voters – and his mob – are disproportionately White, but one of the more unsettling exit-poll data points of the 2020 election was that a quarter to a third of Latino voters voted to reelect Trump.

She continues in a similar vein and adds:

Rooted in America’s ugly history of white supremacy, indigenous dispossession and anti-blackness, multiracial whiteness is an ideology invested in the unequal distribution of land, wealth, power and privilege – a form of hierarchy in which the standing of one section of the population is premised on the debasement of others. Multiracial whiteness reflects an understanding of whiteness as a political colour and not simply a racial identity – a discriminatory worldview in which feelings of freedom and belonging are produced through the persecution and dehumanization of others.

Multiracial whiteness promises Latino Trump supporters freedom from the politics of diversity and recognition. For voters who see the very act of acknowledging one’s racial identity as itself racist, the politics of multiracial whiteness reinforces their desired approach to colorblind individualism. In the politics of multiracial whiteness, anyone can join the MAGA movement and engage in the wild freedom of unbridled rage and conspiracy theories.

Multiracial whiteness offers citizens of every background the freedom to call Muslims terrorists, demand that undocumented immigrants be rounded up and deported, deride BLM as a movement of thugs and criminals, and accuse Democrats of being blood-drinking paedophiles.

Stop Press: Unsurprisingly, Titania McGrath has weighed in:

“Mask Exempt” Lanyards

We’ve created a one-stop shop down here for people who want to obtain a “Mask Exempt” lanyard/card – because wearing a mask causes them “severe distress”, for instance. You can print out and laminate a fairly standard one for free here and the Government has instructions on how to download an official “Mask Exempt” notice to put on your phone here. And if you feel obliged to wear a mask but want to signal your disapproval of having to do so, you can get a “sexy world” mask with the Swedish flag on it here.

Don’t forget to sign the petition on the UK Government’s petitions website calling for an end to mandatory face masks in shops here.

A reader has started a website that contains some useful guidance about how you can claim legal exemption. Another reader has created an Android app which displays “I am exempt from wearing a face mask” on your phone. Only 99p.

If you’re a shop owner and you want to let your customers know you will not be insisting on face masks or asking them what their reasons for exemption are, you can download a friendly sign to stick in your window here.

And here’s an excellent piece about the ineffectiveness of masks by a Roger W. Koops, who has a doctorate in organic chemistry. See also the Swiss Doctor’s thorough review of the scientific evidence here and Prof Carl Heneghan and Dr Tom Jefferson’s Spectator article about the Danish mask study here.

The Great Barrington Declaration

Professor Martin Kulldorff, Professor Sunetra Gupta and Professor Jay Bhattacharya

The Great Barrington Declaration, a petition started by Professor Martin Kulldorff, Professor Sunetra Gupta and Professor Jay Bhattacharya calling for a strategy of “Focused Protection” (protect the elderly and the vulnerable and let everyone else get on with life), was launched in October and the lockdown zealots have been doing their best to discredit it ever since. If you googled it a week after launch, the top hits were three smear pieces from the Guardian, including: “Herd immunity letter signed by fake experts including ‘Dr Johnny Bananas’.” (Freddie Sayers at UnHerd warned us about this the day before it appeared.) On the bright side, Google UK has stopped shadow banning it, so the actual Declaration now tops the search results – and Toby’s Spectator piece about the attempt to suppress it is among the top hits – although discussion of it has been censored by Reddit. The reason the zealots hate it, of course, is that it gives the lie to their claim that “the science” only supports their strategy. These three scientists are every bit as eminent – more eminent – than the pro-lockdown fanatics so expect no let up in the attacks. (Wikipedia has also done a smear job.)

You can find it here. Please sign it. Now over three quarters of a million signatures.

Update: The authors of the GBD have expanded the FAQs to deal with some of the arguments and smears that have been made against their proposal. Worth reading in full.

Update 2: Many of the signatories of the Great Barrington Declaration are involved with new UK anti-lockdown campaign Recovery. Find out more and join here.

Update 3: You can watch Sunetra Gupta set out the case for “Focused Protection” here and Jay Bhattacharya make it here.

Update 4: The three GBD authors plus Prof Carl Heneghan of CEBM have launched a new website collateralglobal.org, “a global repository for research into the collateral effects of the COVID-19 lockdown measures”. Follow Collateral Global on Twitter here. Sign up to the newsletter here.

Judicial Reviews Against the Government

There are now so many legal cases being brought against the Government and its ministers we thought we’d include them all in one place down here.

The Simon Dolan case has now reached the end of the road. The current lead case is the Robin Tilbrook case which challenges whether the Lockdown Regulations are constitutional. You can read about that and contribute here.

Then there’s John’s Campaign which is focused specifically on care homes. Find out more about that here.

There’s the GoodLawProject and Runnymede Trust’s Judicial Review of the Government’s award of lucrative PPE contracts to various private companies. You can find out more about that here and contribute to the crowdfunder here.

And last but not least there was the Free Speech Union‘s challenge to Ofcom over its ‘coronavirus guidance’. A High Court judge refused permission for the FSU’s judicial review on December 9th and the FSU has decided not to appeal the decision because Ofcom has conceded most of the points it was making. Check here for details.

Samaritans

If you are struggling to cope, please call Samaritans for free on 116 123 (UK and ROI), email [email protected] or visit the Samaritans website to find details of your nearest branch. Samaritans is available round the clock, every single day of the year, providing a safe place for anyone struggling to cope, whoever they are, however they feel, whatever life has done to them.

Shameless Begging Bit

Thanks as always to those of you who made a donation in the past 24 hours to pay for the upkeep of this site. Doing these daily updates is hard work (although we have help from lots of people, mainly in the form of readers sending us stories and links). If you feel like donating, please click here. And if you want to flag up any stories or links we should include in future updates, email us here. (Don’t assume we’ll pick them up in the comments.)

And Finally…

Comments

This week across the site:

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2K Comments
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Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago

Let’s all sign the peition:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/564347
”After the vaccine roll-out to high risk groups, remove ALL covid-19 restrictionsAs soon as all vulnerable members of the population (the elderly and those with certain underlying health conditions) have been protected through vaccination, all covid restrictions should be swiftly removed.”

But, of course, they won’t be, and we’ll get the usual patronising reply after 10,000 signatures – if it’s ever ALLOWED to grow that much.

PastImperfect
PastImperfect
5 years ago

Rachel Elnaugh and Andy Pears

You cannot NHS Trust the NHS

Facebook

Basileus
Basileus
5 years ago

Legal developments in Canada.

Story here (in French):

https://guyboulianne.com/2020/12/17/me-carlo-alberto-brusa-depose-une-plainte-penale-relative-aux-vaccins-aupres-du-procureur-de-la-republique-pres-le-tribunal-judiciaire-de-paris-sous-le-numero-20351000746/

Here is Google translation:

Me Carlo Alberto Brusa, president of CAB Associés, files a criminal complaint relating to COVID-19 vaccines with the Public Prosecutor at the Judicial Court of Paris, France, under number 20351000746. Me Brusa is an example to be followed by all lawyers, from all countries.

This complaint from the Réaction 19 association, chaired by Messrs Carlo Alberto Brusa and Riccardo Mereu, will undoubtedly be transmitted to the Prime Ministers of Canada, Quebec and the other Canadian provinces, to the Directors of public health in Canada, to professional orders, to people and organizations involved, to varying degrees, in the unjustified restrictions imposed on the Canadian people in the context of the Covid-19 crisis. This French complaint will be sent to them to warn them that very serious legal proceedings will soon be undertaken against them.

The Government is using a strategy to reign terror among the population, and a ban on movement and access to certain public places in order to morally force the population to adopt gene therapy. Indeed, in view of all the studies carried out and the risks observed, as well as the strategy implemented, there… Read more »

Hugh
Hugh
5 years ago

Started reading above the line. A despicable attack on Lord Sumption imo.

We should always put children’s lives first. Will these people out and say that if a large number of children die from lockdown and related restrictions, that that is a price worth paying, according to their logic? (And yes I absolutely value the lives of the elderly, and deplored the attacks on them for having the temerity to vote in a certain referendum).

Hugh
Hugh
5 years ago
Reply to  wendyk

Yes. I seem to remember an RT report promoting a vaccine developed in Russia (or some such). Presumably no problems with that. Ah well, the BBC are biased as well I suppose…

And what on Earth is that about a Kazakh bodybuilder? Where is this madness going to end up?!

wendyk
wendyk
5 years ago
Reply to  Hugh

I should imagine that all the vaccines will be associated with an array of side effects, including Russia’s Sputnik version.

What concerns so many of us is the speed of production, the various claims made about efficacy, safety etc and the indemnity agreements.

And what are the prospects for those of us who refuse it, citing the concerns listed above?

Hugh
Hugh
5 years ago
Reply to  wendyk

We won’t be able to travel to some countries for a start I should think.

And if lockdown (and other extreme) restrictions (and the stress caused by them) have the malign impact on people’s immune systems that I fear, meaning more excess deaths into the future (to say nothing of deaths from experimental “vaccines” which may possibly have been administered to the public in a fraction of the normal time it takes for these things for reasons other than an unprecedented heroic global effort by the world’s pharmaceutical industry and their scientists), we may see restrictions continue for some time to come, and in future years too on the basis that once something has been done, it is easier to do it again.

On the other hand, if trashing the global economy (as seems to be happening) is as dangerous as I suspect, there will be rather a lot of other problems to worry about.

Now about that Kazakh bodybuilder… 🙂

DanClarke
DanClarke
5 years ago

I’m so sceptical of this ‘virus’ that I don’t believe the agenda the government are following would change even if all the vulnerable were gone. It really makes no difference the ages of those vaccinated, its a performance, a cover for their agenda.

Tom Blackburn
Tom Blackburn
5 years ago

While he thinks he’s being clever leaving things deliberately vague, Wanksock’s 4 conditions all evaporate when the seasons take care of things by themselves.

• The number of Covid deaths decreasing
• Pressure on the NHS reducing
• Evidence of the vaccination programme working
• And no new variant appearing

Freddy Boy
Freddy Boy
5 years ago

Tenby , one of my favourite places has fallen to a foreign Army ! WTF is actually happening to the UK ! We can’t go out but these moaning ungrateful c- – ts can March around without any restrictions , There cannot be a legitimate Lockdown if this is taking place & more rubber raft people still come !!.. We are being Mugged off 100% !!

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  Freddy Boy

I’ve often wondered if these are foreign assets that will be used as a fifth column when the economy collapses, acting as agents provocateurs for the state to provide the pretext for a full martial law crackdown.

awildgoose
awildgoose
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

I wouldn’t be surprised if Flunatic governments disguised rubber raft people and PLA troops as UN peacekeepers if their native peasants become too unruly.

DanClarke
DanClarke
5 years ago

Why has the covid vaccine got a non liability clause, it makes it look suspect, at the very least

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  DanClarke

And why has it got a long list of potential adverse reactions that vaccine takers are never asked to read? Every time we sign up to an app we have to swear blind we read all the terms and conditions but when it comes to putting something inside our bodies that interacts with our DNA in our body, we just shuffle forwards and and say “74” or whatever the number on our ticket is?

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  OKUK

Notice the pattern emerging: if anyone dies after taking the vaccine then there is always doubt as to whether the vaccine caused their death. But if anyone dies within 28 days of a positive Covid test then they definitely died of Covid, without question.

I am running out of negative superlatives to describe the scale of what we are allowing to be done to us. My only conclusion has to be that in the aggregate we deserve it.

awildgoose
awildgoose
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

I agree with the guy who said we are witnessing the establishment of the Anti-Christ’s kingdom on Earth.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  awildgoose

Indeed, represented by the violation of the Temple of Man (our DNA). I forget whether this is supposed to last 7 years or 1,000 years. Either way, we are fucked.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

Totally! If Norway are concerned about 30 post-vaccine deaths, I would make that 300 on the reverse application of the principle.

StevieH
StevieH
5 years ago

Escaped Gulag Wales again today for a house viewing in the Midlands. Set off at 10 – mainly commercial traffic on the way up through the Borders, but coming back it all seemed quite normal. No sign of any fuzz anywhere. These warnings of “travel restrictions” are all psychological warfare. (Offer was accepted btw!).

Freddy Boy
Freddy Boy
5 years ago
Reply to  StevieH

It’s no better here 🤦🏼‍♂️

StevieH
StevieH
5 years ago
Reply to  Freddy Boy

Appreciate that, but this is a second home for us to be nearer the grandkids (and their family).

BJJ
BJJ
5 years ago
Reply to  StevieH

Yet another second home in the Midlands

StevieH
StevieH
5 years ago
Reply to  BJJ

Yeah! Not many people have a second home in the Midlands! 😉

leggy
leggy
5 years ago

I’m just back from a dinner party, it was lovely. Any society that forbids that kind of activity, is not one whose rules I will respect. We are morally obliged to disobey.

Andrea Salford
Andrea Salford
5 years ago
Reply to  leggy

Any society that sets the preservation of the behemoth NHS institution above the education and future of it’s children is not one whose rules should be respected. These rules are crimes against humanity therefore it is criminal to follow them.

Hugh
Hugh
5 years ago
Reply to  Andrea Salford

Any society that expects us to follow lockdown rules and restrictions that will, 100% kill more children than they save (if they save any) worldwide (and probably nationally too)…

I still don’t understand how lockdown zealots can claim to have any sort of moral high ground. And these are absolutely crimes against humanity ( and probably against various international treaties and national laws – but apparently we can’t have this tested in court).

Alethea
Alethea
5 years ago
Reply to  leggy

Oh I LOVE a dinner party. How very clever of you to have spent your evening that way. Do it again tomorrow, please.

Nobody2021
Nobody2021
5 years ago

Tom Newton Dunn says T3 and T4 may be needed in cities for months (part of a longer Twitter thread). This highlights a problem with saying lockdowns/restrictions work. If the effect takes months to show any discernible gain then you could easily say it may be working but not very well:

Tom Newton Dunn
@tnewtondunn

Others in Government say there is a grim dawning realisation emerging that heavy restrictions – Tier 4 and 3 – are likely to have to remain in place in the big cities through April and even into May because current cases are so high and will take many weeks to decrease (5)

Andrea Salford
Andrea Salford
5 years ago
Reply to  Nobody2021

All hogwash of course. Set a benchmark then make sure you can’t achieve it.

Andrea Salford
Andrea Salford
5 years ago
Reply to  Andrea Salford

Drip….drip….drip…

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  Nobody2021

And when May comes around, “just another three months of Tier 4 to beat this”.

I wish they’d just come out and say it: “Lockdown is permanent, for the rest of your lives, but you still have to do everything else we tell you to. Most importantly taking all of our vaccines (which are not vaccines by the way, but you are so fucking dumb we know you’ll roll up your sleeves on command). Also, always wear your gimp mask everywhere in public, your faces disgust us. And by the way you are paying for all this.“

Ovis
Ovis
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

Boris has been saying that in every broadcast he’s given since March. People just don’t want to hear it.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  Ovis

So true, we have been warned again and again. People can go on indulging their fantasy that the government gives a shit about them until they are blue in the face. It makes no difference to the outcome that many on here have been warning about for months on end.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  Nobody2021

Why are you always promoting government propaganda Nobody? I’ve noticed this pattern with you. It sounds from the way you frame things as though you are sceptical about lockdown, but basically the information you reference supports the idea they “work” and you fail to provide even the most cursory of cost-benefit analyses.

Basics
Basics
5 years ago

And so the southward creep continues. The guardian reporting in it’s Europe section – “Morocco detects first case of UK variant – as it happened”.

That is Africa to you and I, however the EU has ambitions to push south to the Sahel region of Africa under what Mr G Verhofstadt called an Empire. I wonder if the guardian reported that as it happened.

They’ll need their hidden-from-British-public-view EU millitary with single point of command and control to roll on South – all a little bit Roman. Good job the EU army just got it’s new uniform, which soldiers will be wearing it?

StevieH
StevieH
5 years ago
Reply to  Basics

Pedant alert! “To you and me”.

Basics
Basics
5 years ago
Reply to  StevieH

the five I’s have it.

Don’t look at any of my other posts. You will die of horror.

Dorian_Hawkmoon
Dorian_Hawkmoon
5 years ago
Reply to  Basics

They will impose rules through withholding loans etc like they tried with Belarus until Putin underwrote their debt – basically get your tanks off my lawn. Africa is a softer target.

DThom
DThom
5 years ago

I wonder what would happen if we took away the assets and benefits from the four musketeers. Would they then be so keen on this farce!

String
String
5 years ago
Reply to  DThom

Either that, or have public sector workers, certainly MPs & elected council folk, & the like, on some kind of reducing furlough scheme, eg. if lockdown goes on for more than a couple of weeks, they get a reduced % of their income, maybe start on 80% like everyone else, then reduce it to 60% if lockdown continues, etc….see how long they vote for restrictions!

Freddy Boy
Freddy Boy
5 years ago

Read about Canada building covid rule breaker internment camps but imagined it was over the top ! However Merkel has now confirmed the collective planning that’s going on by announcing similar German plans !!.. Expect wandycock to tell us about ours before long 🤯🤬

Ovis
Ovis
5 years ago
Reply to  Freddy Boy

Ask them about the sauna.

LouiseP
LouiseP
5 years ago

New Normal video has been taken down by YouTube!

rockoman
rockoman
5 years ago

Copacabana Beach Rio

https://twitter.com/city_affairs/status/1350880549343211520

I prefer the Brazilian variant

🙂 🙂

Richy_m_99
Richy_m_99
5 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

Summer on the Copacobana, sitting on the beach with a coconut in hand, watching the world go by. Happy memories. Always a great place for a few days away before the madness.

Bill H
Bill H
5 years ago
Reply to  Richy_m_99

New year 1979 on the beach at coppacabanna.

Watching the locals sacrificing chickens. Macoumba cult.

Thought they were mad.

Now – not so sure !

Wonderful city.

danny
danny
5 years ago

Head of an academy chain declares that opening schools at half term never the plan, as teachers want to wait for better weather.
No. We cannot allow this year to simply disappear for our children. As a parent. As a teacher. Enough is enough. This is criminal.

Nessimmersion
Nessimmersion
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Only as they get paid anyway.
Different story if they were on zero.

danny
danny
5 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

I agree with you. I am a teacher and am so grateful to be getting paid, but I am disgusted at my profession. Schools, we were told, would not close again, now we are supposed to just add weeks on top of weeks, with each casual new announcement.
Let’s just round it up to half term, Easter, summer, xmas. We have moved from, “regrettably closing” to a new goal post of zero Covid before they open again. This cannot be. Where is the revolt? The pickets? Parents and kids and most teachers standing outside school gates?

JaneHarry
JaneHarry
5 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

exactly – it’s a bribe. we’ll keep stuffing your bank account, and you won’t make a murmur of protest on behalf of the children you’re supposed to stand up for. disgusting and shameful.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  JaneHarry

Furlough will surely morph into UBI (with obedience strings attached) after April when it becomes clear that the majority of furloughed jobs no longer exist. Johnson did promise us that we would be “living in a very different world” by Easter. On this I expect him to keep his word.

jonathan Palmer
jonathan Palmer
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Lockdown legislated for March 31.Furlough extended to April.
It doesn’t take a genius to work out the Governments plans.

danny
danny
5 years ago

I know. But that doesn’t have to mean schools. For example, “tier 4” states that schools should open.
I know I’m clutching at straws, but just look at the demand this time, my daughter had approx 5 with her last lockdown from the whole primary school. This time up to 19 just in her year group alone.

jonathan Palmer
jonathan Palmer
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

The government can’t on one hand tell everyone there is a deadly strain about and then expect teachers to go to work.They have been called on their bullshit.
My 2 daughters were due to take exams this year.im with you 100%.
Their education has been totally destroyed

danny
danny
5 years ago

My daughter is an only child who adores school and goes in quite literally singing some days.
She had her penultimate year at primary stolen from her, and now her final year too. As a teacher in secondary education, I’m all too aware of how fleeting the innocence and joy of primary is, and I just feel so utterly useless as her Dad, watching that time taken from her and being of no help at all in preventing it.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

This is a critical point so often overlooked in the ghastly zero-sum game played in the minds of all those who support restrictions.

The emotional deprivation that is being inflicted on children is something that many will carry with them for the rest of their lives. An old tosser like me with few friends can easily skip several years of living with little or no impact. However anybody under the age of 20 is getting absolutely pummelled for no reason, and their future is being destroyed.

Lisa (formerly) from Toronto
Lisa (formerly) from Toronto
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

I’m mid-50s and could say, conceivably but regretfully, that it was good while it lasted and my OH and I have had a great run. But I have a 20 and 24-year-old and they deserve the same opportunities and freedoms we’ve had, so I will stay alive and do what I can to fight this insanity for them. It’s anti-evolution and totally immoral for older generations to expect younger generations to sacrifice for them and keep them “safe.” I don’t expect anyone to protect me, least of all children and young adults.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago

Absolutely right Lisa. I feel exactly the same way. Old people demanding to be kept alive at any cost to the young are incredibly selfish. If you’re in your 80s you should just accept that if you can’t survive Covid you won’t survive much else, – your time is up. Let the young be young.
,

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Today, while teaching a sixth form class online, I couldn’t keep my thoughts to myself. Might have been something to do with the outdoor mask-strutter walking past my window. They were complaining about cancelled trips, and cancelled everything, and I said something like “if they ever stop imprisoning us”. Every pupil in the class expressed anger at what is happening. Not a very big class, but still. They are forbidden from seeing their friends, seeing far too much of parents, having exams messed up. And it’s a huge proportion their life. All so that people like me can have a repeat of last spring and the months of lounging in gardens drinking white wine.

Waldorf
Waldorf
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

Sixth formers are likely to be more intelligent and aware than most pupils, it seems to me.

danny
danny
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

Similar surreal moment for me today with sixth form too. Couldn’t get the tech to work at all. After several hours had to admit defeat and send a load of material over instead. This is not teaching, and what really irritates me is how institutions are singing the praises of online learning instead of getting angry and making it known that it is no substitute for a classroom.

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

It is no substitute at all. Funny how the teaching unions were actually saying that six months ago when it looked as if they could get out of any sort of teaching at all.

Achilles
Achilles
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

They are imprisoning us. They are there to serve us and yet treat us like disease-ridden sheep to be rounded up, jabbed and locked back in our pens. There is no moral or democratic legitimacy for what they have done. The only way they can get away with it is through psychological terrorism.

Ovis
Ovis
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

That tallies with my experience teaching last term. The young, as far as I can see, are generally sceptical. Not all, but I would say most.

I know a colleague who supported a lecture on Ethics with the clip from the South Park Pandemic Special in which the ‘teachers’ shoot the children to stop them spreading Covid. Lively discussion followed on the concept of proportionality.

OKUK
OKUK
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

Excellent post!

I saw a lovely scene the other day – a group of older teenagers meeting up, no doubt surreptitiously and illegally down some ill-lit shadowy side street – they were so ecstatically happy to be meeting again and embracing each other. It was wonderful to witness.

penelope pitstop
penelope pitstop
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

i don’t think the gov give two hoots for the kids and their education. If one goes for the conspiracy theory ‘great reset’ stuff (which i’m not sure about myself) it may be in their interests to keep kids dumbed down, lacking mental agility and analytical thought processes, and keep them dependent on the state, but of course ‘they will be happy’.

JaneHarry
JaneHarry
5 years ago

or even better – they’ll just commit suicide, unable to bear the utter meaningless of their lives in front of a computer screen; no friends, no falling in love, no careers, no hobbies, no art, no culture- no nothing

Dorian_Hawkmoon
Dorian_Hawkmoon
5 years ago
Reply to  danny

Friend is a teaching assistant. Have to turn up with possibility of stand down. Actual on site supervisory duty. Teachers otoh all on video link, one day in at very most. Class division or what.

arfurmo
arfurmo
5 years ago

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-boris-johnson-says-four-million-vaccine-doses-administered-so-far-12191731 so everything can be shut down at a moments notice but you can’t reopen at a moments notice? Sick of Bojo and the negativity

jonathan Palmer
jonathan Palmer
5 years ago
Reply to  arfurmo

4 million doses and no deaths?
It is just not possible.

Paulus
Paulus
5 years ago

like everything else it will be a covid death

jonathan Palmer
jonathan Palmer
5 years ago
Reply to  Paulus

Is no one even collating statistics?

BJJ
BJJ
5 years ago

That would be un British

Ovis
Ovis
5 years ago
Reply to  Paulus

A death that would have been even sadder without the vaccine

rockoman
rockoman
5 years ago

https://off-guardian.org/2021/01/18/why-i-became-a-covid-denier/

“In summary, the means, motive and opportunity is there. In my view a global coup is clearly under way.”

…
“You have to ask yourself why they at every turn seek to exaggerate and misrepresent data to the upside. During a crisis politicians historically seek to underplay the risks.”

jonathan Palmer
jonathan Palmer
5 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

No doubt that this is what is happening.We are in the consolidation phase.Vaccine plus health passport gives the government immense power.
Digital currency and UBI will be the end of freedom and the coup will be complete

iansn
iansn
5 years ago

NHS death stats site has gone tits up, not excel files in the links. Server problem, for the server supplying the files, not the main site.

rockoman
rockoman
5 years ago

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/israel/

7-day moving average of ‘cases’ in Israel exploding higher in parallel with vaccinations.

Hmmm

jrsm
jrsm
5 years ago
Reply to  rockoman

The same has happened here in Portugal. ‘Cases’ are exploding like crazy, and the hospitals are ‘collapsing’, since they started the Covid-19 vaccination programme (on top of the flu one). But according to the Prime Minister, all the vulnerable in care homes will be vaccinated by next week, so deaths should start reducing by then.

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago

Has this been posted already, from the Telegraph this evening? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/18/getting-covid-jab-could-prompt-public-abandon-rules-say-scientists/
Why would I need to follow the rules if I’ve been vaccinated? Either they think the vaccine doesn’t work or they acknowledge the rules aren’t actually about stopping the virus. Is there another possibility? I realise this is the wrong place to ask but these rules feel theocratic right now.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

It’s an open admission that they haven’t got a clue about the efficacy of the vaccine. Why? Because this is the main clinical trial. Scandalous.

Also, their propaganda has backfired. If they hammer home the message for the best part of a year that the vaccine is the only way out of this, how the hell else do they expect people to react?

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

Propaganda is definitely the right word for it.

Steve Hayes
Steve Hayes
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

A vaccine confers immunity upon the vaccinated individual. Thus, a vaccinated individual can come into contact, over and over and over, with the infectious agent without ever contracting the disease. That is what the words denote. No one, for example, worries about someone who has been vaccinated for measles coming into contact with someone who might have measles because they know the vaccine has conferred immunity from the disease.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Except that this vaccine doesn’t confer immunity, or impact transmission, it merely (allegedly) reduces the severity of symptoms. Which means it isn’t a vaccine at all.

John P
John P
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

No. No. No.

As I have said many times here Richard a VACCINE does exactly as Steve says it does. (If it works).

If a “vaccine” does not do this then either:

a) it’s not a vaccine, it’s a drug
b) it doesn’t work.

If they say this thing only reduces symptoms then it is not a vaccine it’s a drug and they are taking the piss!

That’s it Richard. FFS read what I say and take note! This is not the first time I have said this here.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  John P

I totally agree, and this is exactly what I concluded in my reply to Steve – it’s not a vaccine at all.

gina
gina
5 years ago
Reply to  John P

Perhaps you might care to read and take note, ‘ffs,’ before you post another shouty correction to someone else’s post.

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  Steve Hayes

Yes, exactly my point…

Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

Next step: ‘scientists’ ban vaccine?

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  Annie

Yes, if I’ve got this right, lockdowns aren’t just supposed to stop the virus. They’re actually more important than stopping the virus and if stopping the virus is going to cause people to stop locking down then really it’s far too dangerous to be vaccinating people.

Cheezilla
Cheezilla
5 years ago

Do you think the £7000 compensation focused their minds somewhat?

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago

Holy shit put invermiticin India into google and invermiticin india into duckduckgo and tell me if you get the same result?

Nessimmersion
Nessimmersion
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ

Invermectin?
https://swprs.org/who-preliminary-review-confirms-ivermectin-effectiveness/

Dr Andrew Hill of the Department of Pharmacology at the University of Liverpool (UK) is currently performing a WHO-sponsored review and meta-analysis of randomized controlled trials of ivermectin against covid. In the following 12-minute video, Dr Hill is presenting his preliminary results, which indicate a highly significant 83% reduction in covid mortality (95% CI 65%-92%)

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

thats my problem. cheers

BeBopRockSteady
BeBopRockSteady
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ

Of course not. Try and find any info on Kary Mullis and his PCR tests. Straight in there with fact check saying he never said they shouldn’t be used for screening.

Banjones
Banjones
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ
Elenesse
Elenesse
5 years ago

I honestly don’t know how I would have got through the last year without my dog and two cats. They’ve kept me sane as they’re the only normal aspect of my life at the moment.

I take my dog on walks, he gets me out of the house. One thing I’ve found is that I rarely see maskoids walking their dogs so it’s a wonderfully normal experience to take him around the local park and beach. Dog walkers regularly have to pick up dog doo, so we’re not scared of picking up viruses. Normal hand washing after is more than sufficient!

It’s really important to be able to communicate with your dog whilst out and about, I dread to think how my dog would react if I masked up for his walks.

Charlie Blue
Charlie Blue
5 years ago
Reply to  Elenesse

Agree completely. My dogs are what I get out of bed for every day. On of them will often growl at men in hats ( I have worked hard to help her feel less worried), but masks send her off the deep end and I certainly do nothing to discourage it! Dogs read human facial expressions too and they know beyond a shadow of a doubt that a covered face is downright sinister!

Will
Will
5 years ago
Reply to  Elenesse

A good friend was having a problem with her flat coat not delivering a retrieve to hand. I asked her if she has changed her glasses, she hadn’t but she had got new lenses which had a slight tint in the same frame. When she changed back the dog went back to perfect delivery to hand. My dogs haven’t seen me wearing a mask and they won’t.

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  Elenesse

Wonder how long until I see a masked dog-walker walking a masked dog.

Cranmer
Cranmer
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

For a laugh I occasionally troll lockdown zealots, and post things like ‘these lockdowns are not good enough – we need everyone to stay indoors 24/7, including NHS and key workers’.

I was considering writing a post saying ‘covid can spread via pets, so make sure your dog is always masked while out being walked’ – but was concerned that somebody, somewhere, would actually think it was a good idea.

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  Cranmer

Even though I meant it as a joke, I honestly don’t think I’d be surprised to see a pet in a mask any more.

Nymeria
Nymeria
5 years ago
Reply to  Cranmer

See above post, Cranmer!

crimsonpirate
crimsonpirate
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

I have seen this!- during lockdown in November- getting off the tube, the woman opposite me put a mask on her dog

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  crimsonpirate

That must have been really funny. I must keep an eye out rather than adopting my general habit of turning away in rage when I see someone wearing a mask outside.

Elenesse
Elenesse
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

My dog wears a muzzle but only because he has a habit of eating small tennis balls! He recently had to have surgery to get one removed, it made him very poorly indeed. Definitely more of a good reason for him to wear a muzzle than us wearing filthy rags to keep out a microscopic virus!

Nymeria
Nymeria
5 years ago
Reply to  quodcumque

I’m sad to report that my friend has seen such a thing. Woman with her dog, both masked up, walking along the street. And I don’t know which is worse, but a work colleague who shared his dog with his estranged girlfriend, has now got sole ownership of the dog because his girlfriend reckoned the dog was a carrier of covid.

Annie
Annie
5 years ago
Reply to  Elenesse

If you want to talk to a human being, talk to a dog walker.
Tslk to the dog too. They are way more intelligent than zombies.

Snarly
Snarly
5 years ago
Reply to  Elenesse

I’ve seen quite a few masked dog walkers in Bexhill, so I pick the quietest possible route to walk our dog. But people here are getting so fanatical about muzzles here that I expect soon to get accosted as soon as I leave the house. I think we ought to hold a competition to see who can come up with with the most outrageous mask-wearing situation. How about these:

clown001.jpg
Snarly
Snarly
5 years ago
Reply to  Snarly

And this:

clown002.jpg
Old Trout
Old Trout
5 years ago
Reply to  Snarly

Haven’t any pics of it but I did see a couple snogging with masks on the other day !!!

BJJ
BJJ
5 years ago
Reply to  Old Trout

It must take a while

quodcumque
quodcumque
5 years ago
Reply to  Snarly

This?

Screenshot_20210119-000153_Chrome.jpg
SilentP
SilentP
5 years ago

Lead item on the 6 o’clock news, yes six o’clock news, showed shrouded bodies in a hospital mortuary. No further comment needed

DThom
DThom
5 years ago
JohnB
JohnB
5 years ago
Reply to  DThom

Mask wearer who agreed with the 2020 March lockdown. Hmmmmmmm.

Lisa (formerly) from Toronto
Lisa (formerly) from Toronto
5 years ago
Reply to  DThom

He asks the right questions but is still willing to comply. Closer to our side than the other, but with friends like that…

John
John
5 years ago

Vaccine myth busting by my company
”Myth #1: The speed of development means the vaccine may be unsafe.
Fact: Many sceptics have noted how quickly the vaccine has been developed but this is just a reflection of the extraordinary scientific advances that have been made in vaccine technology. Along with this the development of the vaccine has been backed with significant funding which has allowed for record breaking development and almost 24 hour working getting this vaccine tested and approved.
Myth #2: I have already had Covid-19 and hence do not need the vaccine.
Fact: Due to the severe health risks associated with the illness, the fact that reinfection with Covid- 19 is possible means the advice is to be vaccinating again. Research published today by Public Health England (PHE) in the Siren report shows that antibodies from past infections provide 83% protection for at least five months but does not stop you from passing the virus on to others. No one is clear how long our natural immunity will last and it is unclear if a previous infection to Covid-19 will protect against new mutations. In addition, it has been suggested that having a Covid-19 vaccine after having had… Read more »

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Is this a troll???

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ

The first sentence indicates that this is a communication from their employer.

A great example of how the bullshit narrative has percolated right into the heart of our society. If I receive anything like this from my company I will be reading them the riot act (and probably resigning shortly thereafter).

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

sorry i’m an idiot lol

Mark
Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ

p02099003 has been posting here for ages, a healthcare worker iirc and a legit sceptic. This isn’t a troll post but I assume providing information on the kind of bollocks such companies are putting out to their employees.

Sarigan
Sarigan
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ

Absolutely not. p02099003 has been here from the start and works in NHS sharing what has been sent.

awildgoose
awildgoose
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Totally self-contradictory gaslighting trash.

Alice
Alice
5 years ago
Reply to  John

There are a few questionable assertions here. “Our immune system has to be primed” – what’s the source of this statement? And where’s the proof that vaccinations will help reduce the spread? References to scientific publications, please!

Silke David
Silke David
5 years ago
Reply to  Alice

Exactly, for over 2000 years our immune system functioned just nicely.
Some scientists throwing up warning signs about mRNA “vaccine” are especially concerned about how the immune system will response, especially long term.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago
Reply to  Silke David

More like 200,000 years. Granted we live in much different conditions than most of our ancestors, but our most significant advances in controlling disease in response to increasing population density have been really basic things like improving water sanitation.

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

Richard, I think you’ll find that there are a number of deeply unpleasant diseases which have caused immeasurable suffering to humanity for thousands of years which have only been tamed or eradicated through vaccines. Here’s a list https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/forgot-14-diseases.html

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago

Of course, but SARS-CoV-2 is not one of them. For the record, the last vaccine I received was a tetanus booster 30 years ago, and I have been in rude health ever since.

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

Those noble savage ancestors of ours….including you it seems…who manage(d) in rude health without any vaccines at all, or just….a tetanus jab! Marvellous. I’m very sorry now I bothered to have that sugar cube with the polio vaccine when i was a little boy, what was the point?!

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago

I said it was the last vaccine I received, not the only vaccine.

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  Richard O

I have met people who got polio as children. Believe me, the polio vaccine is a blessing. Now at least one person on this board says I am ‘conflating’. But I say a vaccine is a vaccine is a vaccine.

Richard O
Richard O
5 years ago

Not in this case. There is simply too much politics wrapped up in this now e.g. I view this vaccine principally as a gateway to a dystopian nightmare from which we will never escape rather than a medical cure.

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago

The overwhelming majority on here don’t dispute the necessity for vaccines. We dispute the necessity for a vaccine against COVID.

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  Silke David

Silly old nonsense about vaccines, eh? Well, apart from polio. Otherwise, our immune system has functioned just nicely. Oh, and tetanus. Otherwise, vaccines are completely useless. Er, not forgetting hepatitis B. And indeed hepatitis A. But apart from polio, tetanus, hepatitis A and B, what have vaccines ever done for us? Um, rubella, measles, and whooping cough……otherwise NOTHING.

But there is a list, although this is obviously just made up nonsense….https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/diseases/forgot-14-diseases.html

/sarc

Nessimmersion
Nessimmersion
5 years ago

Look up conflation as you appear to be indulging in it.

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

Nah, you are etymologically challenged.

Nessimmersion
Nessimmersion
5 years ago

You appear to lack the courage of your alleged convictions as well as well as any evidence that most commentators are against all vaccines instead of just the Covid specials.

Portnadler
Portnadler
5 years ago

Interesting. I did have polio vaccine and later typhoid (I think). The rest not. And here I am. My children: no vaccines whatsoever (and no antibiotics, ever). And there they are, ridiculously healthy successful adults. No vaccines for me ever again.

Morse
Morse
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Tell them you are “myth’d off” with virtue signalling corporate bullshit and you’re perfectly capable of deciding things for yourself.

jos
jos
5 years ago
Reply to  Morse

Or say you believe all of these myths to be true so can’t have the vaccine due to the nocebo effect- your negative expectations of the jab will inevitably lead to you having bad side-effects whether or not they are true. I’m going to try it ..

Nessimmersion
Nessimmersion
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Please provide evidence of reinfection.

Charlie Blue
Charlie Blue
5 years ago
Reply to  Nessimmersion

I think you can safely assume that the poster’s employer did not do that!

Achilles
Achilles
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Wow. The arrogance of now writ large. Guess what. The people who developed Thalidomide were scientists at the cutting edge of research too.

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  Achilles

In that case, let’s stop all scientists from working on creating new medicines. Bloody scientists. /sarc

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago

How does that response follow?

cambridgenative
cambridgenative
5 years ago
Reply to  JHUNTZ

How does your response make any sense at all?

JHUNTZ
JHUNTZ
5 years ago

You are well aware how ridiculous and petty your response is.

jonathan Palmer
jonathan Palmer
5 years ago

Stop destroying your straw man.
The problem with the ‘vaccine’ is that it is an unlicensed experimental treatment that has had minimal testing,for a virus that according to Chris Whitty is harmless for the majority of people who get it.

Achilles
Achilles
5 years ago

Fortunately we have developed lots of legal protocols and safeguards over the years precisely to test the efficacy and danger of new medicines. You know, the ones that have been bypassed to rush this one out in 9 months under huge political pressure. If you’re unable to see the potential problem of that then I’m not sure what I can say to you. Still, enjoy the jab and let me know how you’re getting on in 2 years.

sophie123
sophie123
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Does your company understand what a “fact” is?

sophie123
sophie123
5 years ago
Reply to  sophie123

In fact the only fact I can find there is the bit that vaccines don’t make you bullet proof.

HoMojo
HoMojo
5 years ago
Reply to  John

They’ve missed out an essential fact: masks are fucking useless.

BeBopRockSteady
BeBopRockSteady
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Copy and paste. Seen much of that doing the rounds from bots with Dr in their name on Facebook

https://unlimitedhangout.com/2020/12/reports/10-facts-from-the-uk-government-pfizer-vaccine-guidance-that-promote-vaccine-hesitancy/

TimeIsNow
TimeIsNow
5 years ago
Reply to  John

The myth#3 stuff sounds worse than the disease for most people. No thanks.

Laura Suckling
Laura Suckling
5 years ago
Reply to  John

“No one is clear how long our natural immunity will last and it is unclear if a previous infection to Covid-19 will protect against new mutations.”

Well, in that case neither will the vaccine will it? Or, are they producing a new vaccine for each new mutation?

Mark
Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Obviously a lot of people here a bit trigger happy with the downvotes…..

Jaguarpig
Jaguarpig
5 years ago
Reply to  John

77 cunt

Sarigan
Sarigan
5 years ago
Reply to  Jaguarpig

p02099003 is far from that. Been here since the beginning and without doubt a true sceptic.

Mark
Mark
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Do many of your fellow employees swallow any of that transparent nonsense?

I have to say, you’d have to be pretty thick or pretty ignorant not to spot most of the misleading claims and outright falsehoods.

jos
jos
5 years ago
Reply to  John

🤣🤣🤣🤣

jos
jos
5 years ago
Reply to  jos

Our immune system would be primed if we were allowed to go out and socialise with people 🤦‍♀️

danny
danny
5 years ago
Reply to  John

In the words of Jack nicholson in As Good As It Gets “ go sell crazy someplace else. We’re all stocked up here”

Nottheonly1
Nottheonly1
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Your company being the bill and melinda gates foundation, obviously. How pathetic.

Ceriain
Ceriain
5 years ago
Reply to  John

Why are you downticking him? This is not his opinion; he’s reporting the bollocks his company are telling their employees.

p02099003 is one of the good guys here, and provides lots of excellent input, being in the medical business.

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