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The Express leads with the minute’s silence for NHS workers who’ve died of COVID-19 that was observed at 11am this morning and the fact that the families of front line NHS and social care staff in England who’ve died will receive £60,000 in compensation, which was announced by Matt Hancock at the Downing Street press briefing yesterday.

Any death from the virus is tragic, and I can see the argument for compensating the families of workers who succumb to COVID-19 after putting themselves in harm’s way. But why NHS and social care staff and not, say, bus drivers? Or supermarket workers? Or the owners of corner shops that have remained open during the crisis? Or postmen and milkmen? Is it because NHS workers are more likely to die from COVID-19 than other members of the working population? As readers will recall, I crunched the numbers on that last week with the help of Guy de la Bédoyère, a reader with a background in statistics, and concluded that, on the face of it, NHS workers are no more likely to die than other workers. I asked Guy to look at the numbers again to see if that’s still true.

Understanding the impact of COVID-19 on NHS workers is bedevilled by a number of unknowns. The constant blurring in the media of NHS staff with “healthcare workers” (a larger and more nebulous number that includes NHS staff), a lack of clarity about whether the NHS staff who have died are front line workers or not, the general problem with determining whether a person has died from or with COVID-19, and working out where they picked up the infection – was it at work? – are just some of the complicating factors. Following our analysis, BBC Radio 4’s More or Less programme did its own calculation last week. Estimating the UK’s working population (people aged 20-65) to be ~42 million and the number of NHS staff at 1.47 million, More or Less calculated that of the 2,145 people of working age who had died of COVID-19 at that point (16,509), between 70 and 85 of them should have been NHS workers simply by virtue of their being exposed to the same general risk as everyone else. As it turned out, exactly 77 NHS staff had died at that point. You can listen to the item on the programme here. (It starts at 17m and 23s.)

Is it still the case that NHS workers are no more likely to die than other members of the working population? Yesterday, Matt Hancock announced that 82 NHS staff had died from COVID-19. The stated deaths in hospitals for the same day was 21,092, an increase of 28%. Assuming everything else is equal, that means that by yesterday 98 NHS staff should have died, 16 more than are recorded as having done so. In other words, they appear to be less at risk of succumbing to the virus than other workers.

But there are various caveats I should add. For example, we have no idea what the variable risk is that NHS staff are exposed to, depending on their jobs. Have the 82 fatalities been exposed to more risk than the average NHS worker? In addition, NHS staff are likely to be largely fit and well – healthier than the average 20-65 year-old – and if they’re working in hazardous environments they should be wearing protective clothing, although there have been PPE shortages as we know. Consequently, it’s possible that NHS workers would be dying in fewer numbers if their daily work really does render them no more vulnerable to COVID-19 than other workers. Even so, there are still no statistical data showing that NHS staff are exposed to additional risk over and above the risk that all workers are exposed to – not any that I can find anyway. (Off-Guardian has also done an analysis, as has HSJ, and both have concluded that healthcare workers are substantially under-represented among those recorded as having died from the virus.)

In other news, both the Times and the Telegraph have interpreted Boris’s speech yesterday more generously than I did, detecting in it a signal that the lockdown is about to be eased – and it looks as if their political editors have been briefed to that effect by Downing Street. The Times reports that shops selling “non-essential” items will soon be allowed to reopen if they can keep customers two metres apart, people will be permitted to mix with a limited number of people outside their homes, Premier League football games will resume behind closed doors (although the Government can’t mandate that) and people arriving in the UK from abroad are likely to face two weeks in quarantine. The Telegraph claims garden centres will reopen in the next fortnight and – glory be – rubbish dumps and recycling centres may throw open their doors as soon as this weekend. Both say the fleshed-out proposals will be announced in the next few days.

At last Friday’s Downing Street coronavirus summit, according to the Telegraph, Boris quoted Cicero’s motto: “Salus populi suprema lex esto.” This has been widely translated as meaning “the health of the people should be the supreme law”, but a reader of this site begs to differ. He points out that the Latin word salus means a lot more than physical health. Among other things, it also means “a sound or whole condition, welfare, prosperity” (Lewis and Short, Latin Dictonary). In other words, the wellbeing of every aspect of human society, not just physical wellbeing. Cicero’s motto doesn’t mean physical health should take priority over everything else, including the economy.

Rachel Shabbi has taken a pop at lockdown sceptics (and me in particular) in the Guardian, describing us as “the right’s angry culture warriors” and linking us with Brexiteers. (My own experience is there’s some overlap, but the Venn diagram isn’t a perfect circle.) She dismisses the argument that continuing lockdowns across the world will result in a greater loss of life than the pandemic as “nonsense”, which is a bit odd given how often she has repeated the dubious claim that the UK’s austerity programme of the last 10 years has resulted in 130,000 unnecessary deaths. “Strikingly,” she writes, “these sceptics don’t engage with the actual issue with the lockdown: that it came too late, causing thousands of unnecessary deaths, even while many scientists and the World Health Organization were imploring swifter action of the like being taken by other countries.” Shabbi appears to be unaware of one of the central planks of the sceptical case, namely, that lockdowns don’t in fact reduce COVID-19 fatalities. In other words, there’s no evidence the number of UK deaths would be lower if the Government had imposed a lockdown sooner. As Lyman Stone points out in his sceptical essay in Public Discourse: “We don’t need to have a national debate about whether the economic costs of lockdowns outweigh their public health benefits, because lockdowns do not provide public health benefits.”

In addition to the economic cost, there is the continuing toll that the lockdown is taking on the most vulnerable members of our society, something you’d think Guardian journalists would care about. Amanda Spielman, head of the schools watchdog, has warned that the country’s poorest pupils are likely to suffer most from school closures. Addressing the House of Commons Education Select Committee yesterday, she said: “Whether we like it or not, it is going to widen gaps, especially in the short term.” The Mail has the story.

For a robust statement of the sceptical case, I recommend this comment posted under ‘How Reliable is Imperial College’s Modelling?’ by Hugh Osmond, the founder of Punch Taverns, one of the UK’s largest pub chains. It’s a lengthy post that has prompted an interesting discussion thread and is worth reading in full. Hugh’s conclusion is as follows:

Headline-grabbing predictions by advisers such as the Imperial team were derived from inappropriate model inputs with unreliable early data. On the most cursory analysis, it was apparent that the model bore no resemblance to the reality and the Imperial modellers should have been quietly dropped from the advisory group. Similarly, even before the epidemic arrived in the UK, it should have been obvious from the experience in China and Italy that spread of infection by asymptomatic individuals within hospitals (and elsewhere) was an enormous problem. Ward segregations, compulsory use of PPE, testing of all hospital workers and other rigorous measures to prevent institutional outbreaks amongst the vulnerable should have been in place from the start.

Freddie Sayers, the editor of UnHerd, has written a thoughtful piece following his interview with Neil Ferguson on Saturday. He argues that which epidemiologists you believe in this crisis – the hawks or the doves, to invoke the distinction between the rival Cabinet factions – doesn’t come down to a choice between good and evil, as some lockdown zealots would have it. It’s much more complicated than that. “The expert that most resonates is unlikely to be entirely down to your assessment of the science — more likely a complex combination of your politics, your own life experience, your attitude to risk and mortality and your relationship to authority,” he writes.

Arch-sceptic Heather Mac Donald has written a good piece in Spectator USA about the Covid paranoia that has infected the US population. Among the points she makes is that the odds of catching the virus from a passing jogger are vanishingly small. “The chance of getting infected across a wide open, windswept space is virtually nil, even if the imaginary carrier were not moving quickly past his potential victim,” she writes. It’s delusional beliefs like this, she says, constantly reinforced by the mainstream media’s hysterical coverage, that will prevent consumers from going to re-opened restaurants or boarding planes in sufficient numbers to bring the economy back to life.

In the interests of balance, it’s also worth reading this piece in New York magazine by David Wallace-Wells on how many things we still don’t know about SARS-CoV-2. Wallace-Wells is a lockdown zealot, but he does a good job of reporting on the constantly changing medical understanding of how the virus is killing us and how best to treat critically ill patients. (He points out that hydroxychloroquine and remdesivir aren’t faring well in trials.) “The clinical shape of the disease, long presumed to be a relatively predictable respiratory infection, is getting less clear by the week,” he writes. “Lately, it seems, by the day.” Reading about the protean ability of the virus to kill us in a variety of ingenious and horrible ways, it’s tempting to conclude it’s a genetically-engineered bioweapon – but then, conspiracy theories are always tempting when faced with something sinister and mysterious. This account by a New York nurse of what doctors are doing wrong in New York City’s hospitals is hair-raising, although it’s a second-hand report. And when it comes to the effectiveness of ventilators, a Consultant Anaesthetist with a particular interest in critical care has posted an interesting comment underneath ‘How Effective are Ventilators’ that you can read here.

Omar Rodriguez organizes bodies in the Gerard J. Neufeld funeral home in Elmhurst on April 22nd. Photo: Spencer Platt/Getty Images

If you think you’ve got it bad wherever you’re locked down, spare a thought for those trapped at the Tribal Gathering Festival in Panama. Midway through the festival, which was supposed to be an opportunity for Westerners to learn from local indigenous people how to “rebalance” their lives, Panama went into lockdown, making it virtually impossible to leave. As one reader writes: “Imagine being locked down indefinitely with this bunch of self-indulgent, woke, middle class, ‘right on’ wasters – hell on earth!” There are still 40 people trapped on the site. Vice has a video report of the calamity.

A number of readers have reported that the YouTube video of the two doctors in California making a number of sceptical points about the way governments have responded to the crisis across the world (which I linked to last week) has been taken down. If you click on the link, that certainly seems to be the case. Is this an example of YouTube applying its censorship policy whereby any content that is “medically unsubstantiated” or challenges the WHO’s recommendations will be removed? Confusingly, the second part of the doctors’ briefing is still on YouTube.

In case you missed it, one of the regular commentators in this site – RDawg – posted this comment yesterday: “Persons caught saying any one of the following phrases, especially when used in a morally superior ‘tutting’ way, are subject to a payment of £10 into the swear jar and a slap round the face with a wet kipper:

  • ‘Self isolate’
  • ‘Social distancing’
  • ‘Flatten the curve’
  • ‘Guided by the science’
  • ‘The new normal’
  • ‘We must wait until we have a vaccine’
  • Any positive referencing of Neil Ferguson and his ‘model’
  • ‘We risk having a second peak’

To which other commentators have added:

  • ‘Oh, so you’re happy for old people to die’?
  • ‘It’s worth it if it saves just one life’
  • ‘Stay safe’

I’m sure you can think of some more.

Finally, if you feel like some light relief while you’re doing your daily exercise – and you can’t find anything better – there’s always the latest episode of London Calling, the weekly podcast I do with my friend James Delingpole. You can listen to it here. Plenty of sceptical chat, but we also talk about the embarrassment of having our wives write in last week’s Spectator about what it’s like being locked up with us. You can read those pieces here. My wife’s contribution is a tissue of lies, obviously.

A huge thank you to all those who donated to pay for the upkeep of this site in the past 24 hours. The battle continues, so if you feel like donating you can do so here. And if you want to flag up any stories or links I should include in the site, or have points you’d like me to make on your behalf, you can email me [email_obfuscator [email protected]]. Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Hopefully we’ll know by the end of the week.

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172 Comments
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swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

Another scientific masterpiece a la Ferguson posted for peer review on the 15th April based on computer projections calculated March about the health impact of Covid-19 in Sweden that dangerous non lockdown country
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.11.20062133v1
Quote
“Findings: Our model for Sweden shows that, under conservative epidemiological parameter estimates, the current Swedish public-health strategy will result in a peak intensive-care load in May that exceeds pre-pandemic capacity by over 40-fold, with a median mortality of 96,000 (95% CI 52,000 to 183,000).”

On 29th April Sweden had 2462 deaths and the peak of deaths most likely between 8th and 15th April and declining ICU admittance each day.(Figures from FoH Sweden not the unreliable Wordometer). The epidemic is now going down and certainly there will be more deaths but conservatively that they should have 96000 deaths in May is completely absurd.
We should switch off their computers until they come up with a better plan. We must end the Ferguson calculation pandemic asap

mj
mj
6 years ago

I’m so glad to find this website – all across the Internet, I can either see ‘Lockdown Zealots’ or ‘Conspiracy Theorists’ – there’s no healthy sceptical discussion about lockdowns anywhere else.

As an Indian, I’m unable to make head or tail of our government policies at the moment – we have only about a fraction of the UK deaths till now, even though, our population is twenty times than that of the UK!

I can vouch for the fact that the Covid business has become completely political, and the exit process is going to be long and painful for all countries.

Since ours is a developing country, I shudder to think of the frightening second order effects of the lockdown, and strongly feel that the government has no ideas to help us get our economy back on track.

Scary times, indeed.

Rick
Rick
6 years ago

Toby

Your points (however unpopular) about health workers’ death rates are well made. I will endeavour to take some flack from you (petrol on the fire) by questioning your assumption that NHS and other care workers are healthier than the average. I work in health fitness and have qualifications in nutrition and can tell you that I have been so concerned about the state of NHS workers health that I have previously written to the Health Minister. Most of the front line staff work shifts (not a good start) are little more than sedentary (standing around and walking between patients does not elevate heart rates) no evidence that exercise rates are more than wider society and have at their disposal vast quantities of cakes, chocolates and other treats given by well meaning patients and families. The health service are aware of this. I once witnessed a packed canteen of doctors and nurses in a major hospital, where all manner of foods were available including a good selection of fruit, veg and salads. I lost count of the number of plates of chips, muffins and sugary tins of pop being consumed. The only green plate was being consumed by the cancer… Read more »

tides
tides
6 years ago

Don’t know if anyone has posted this link yet. It is a very interesting read
https://theinfectiousmyth.com/book/CoronavirusPanic.pdf

AN other lockdown sceptic
AN other lockdown sceptic
6 years ago
Reply to  tides

Thanks for sharing this.

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

https://covidinfos.net/covid19/pour-le-pr-didier-raoult-la-possibilite-dune-deuxieme-vague-est-fantaisiste/566/

This is a you tube interview with Professor Didier Raoult , a very famous infectious disease specialist in Marseille, who has been vilified for promoting hydrochloroquine use in Covid-19. He published articles on that subject which has duly been criticized by media and medical establishment. This interview is in French (auto generated subtitles in French could help a little) but the main interest in the interview is his claim that a second wave is only a phantasy. This is a typical epidemic with the Bells shaped curve according to him. Early on in the interview he comments about a recent study from Singapore calculating the end of the epidemic and he quickly show several very interesting charts where they have calculated the end of the epidemic for the UK,US etc. I am posting this mainly if anyone could give any hints where we could find these original studies from the Singapore scientists. Singapore has a very high reputation for infectious diseases control and are world experts in SARS which makes it even more interesting to get hold of that paper.

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

Addendum. The Professor perhaps had a point about treatment! Look at this letter published today from
https://aapsonline.org/hcq-90-percent-chance/
This is not from a fringe group.This is a letter from the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons urgently requesting the Governor of Arizona to stop urgently all restrictions to prescribe hydrochloroquine. Very interesting.

Tim Bidie
Tim Bidie
6 years ago

I see that certain newspapers are still referring to some kind of wartime national mood of resolution but a great deal of it outside the media seems in fact to be, rather, puzzlement over the preference for modelling over empiricism, perhaps even turning to whimsy. References to World War Two inevitably conjure up images from Dad’s Army, a programme that caught so many national stereotypes to the life.

What seems a great deal in evidence is the rise and rise, for example, of an ‘Chief Air Raid Warden’ culture, so many high viz tabard wearing exemplars of the traits shown to such disadvantage by the absurdly helmeted Chief ARP Warden Hodges. We see them everywhere, particularly in Northamptonshire, where the Chief Constable is a ‘dead ringer’

Clearly the country is being led by Sgt Wilson, aided and abetted by the health secretary as Corporal Jones and Prof. Neil Ferguson, or the minister for the cabinet office, as Private Fraser.

Parlour games while away the time…..here’s another one. We have the splendid ‘We’ll meet again…..’ as an anthem for the Second World War.

What should the lockdown anthem be, I wonder? Here are two or three tunes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZtJxhp7mUw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLV4_xaYynY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkOiKy6sXfM

… Read more »

eastberks44
eastberks44
6 years ago
Reply to  Tim Bidie
Barney McGrew
Barney McGrew
6 years ago
Reply to  Tim Bidie

Surely the country is being led by Neville Chamberlain..? Instead of ‘going it alone’ we have decided to appease the WHO, Bill Gates, Imperial College, the BBC, the Guardian, the tabloids…

old fred
old fred
6 years ago
Reply to  Tim Bidie

This song came to my mind weeks ago when all this kicked off

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aItpjF5vXc

Annabel Andrew
Annabel Andrew
6 years ago
Reply to  Tim Bidie

Went to bed singing ‘Always look on the bright side of life’ last night – so thank you!

AN other lockdown sceptic
AN other lockdown sceptic
6 years ago

Prof Neil’s crazy prediction of 2.2m Americans potentially dying is getting some attention in their alternative media https://youtu.be/MhRJ8mfyCv8?t=861

JASA
JASA
6 years ago

Good clip. How long until You Tube remove that?

BoneyKnee
BoneyKnee
6 years ago

Oh dear, another load of know-nothing slackers trying to make people laugh. We are supposed to listen to and trust these people over professors. “2.2 million people simply cannot die in the USA.” The code has been shared and Ferguson is not the only modeller in the world.

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  BoneyKnee

His modelling inputs have not been shared. And please tone down the snark.

Mark Hunter
Mark Hunter
6 years ago
Reply to  BoneyKnee

Post after post from you supporting Ferguson. You do realise that neither his code nor the underlying data have been peer-reviewed, right?

And that other statisticians and epidemiologists don’t agree with his report’s findings, right?

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark Hunter

He was asked about the inputs and he replied they were ‘in his head’.

Willow
Willow
6 years ago
Reply to  BecJT

Seriously? That’s not even funny

Oaks79
Oaks79
6 years ago

Here is Sir Patrick Vallance talking about covid on death certificates even if that person wasn’t even tested https://youtu.be/TYA24SacyYY

Trump advicer Dr Birx basically telling us if you die of heart or liver failure etc etc it will go down as covid https://youtu.be/GGHp1GdOD4k

Dr Ngozi Ezike from the Illinois Department of Public Health letting us know if your in a hospice with a week or two to live but test for covid it’ll be covid on the death cert https://youtu.be/Tw9Ci2PZKZg

No wonder the numbers are high, they are literally inflating them, with other deaths

giblets
giblets
6 years ago
Reply to  Oaks79

This is really interesting! Vallance’s comment contradict what the lockdown supporters are suggesting, that the number is a lot higher…but people haven’t been tested, in fact the numbers are being inflated because they have not been tested.

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  Oaks79
swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago
Reply to  Oaks79

Trump knows that he has been conned by Dr Fauci and the Bill Gates cabal. He desperately needs as many deaths as possible and the CDC has been ordered to inflate the figures with the consensus from all Governors in the US. He would have egg on his face if the death rate was in the region of ordinary flu with 80 million unemployed in the “best” economy in the world.

Morris_Day
Morris_Day
6 years ago

Another person who has never voted Tory and a keen ‘Remainer’ who is now being accused of being a ‘right-wing zealot’ and many other things by looking at statistics – my job – and forming an opinion (are we allowed one anymore) that is different to what the majority of Twitter or the Media is spinning.

People are going to die either way, there is no point sugar-coating it. My view is based mainly on a combination of the risk profile for the majority of the population currently on lockdown, and the consequences of extended lockdown to a range of other metrics and support the one I believe will result in the lower loss of life, and greater wellbeing to the overall population..

The additional costs of lockdown that jump out of the page are obvious; the reduction in cancer treatments, elective surgeries, mental health and the knock-on effect this going to have down the line. This ‘indirect’ list in inexhaustible unfortunately and with a longer-term outlook it goes so much deeper than simply the economy which is the usual retort received when saying it’s good that small businesses are getting support (in the form of a loan, they… Read more »

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  Morris_Day

In the same boat, I was also told caring about civil liberties is ‘right wing’

Suitejb
Suitejb
6 years ago
Reply to  Morris_Day

It’s not just funding that charities and community groups will be short of. These are often run by volunteers, many of whom are retired and over 70, the very group of people who would no longer be available if they have to isolate for longer. Bad news for both volunteers and clients.

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  Suitejb

It’s community fundraising as well, lots of community groups such as Rotary, Lions, WI, sports clubs etc raise money for charities, in the first week of lockdown charity income was down 50%, people panicked and cancelled direct debits as well (known to run on the ‘inertia’ principle, people just tend to leave them, this is really important income for charities as it’s ‘unrestricted’ and does not have to be designated to a specific activity, which is pretty vital at the minute)

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

An interview with 2 US ER physicians criticizing the lockdown and the covid-response was on you tube and was viewed by 5 million people but was taken down by you tube as it broke their community guidelines not following WHO recommendations. It has just been reloaded on you tube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zed_U257j4o&feature=youtu.be edited but not taking out anything essential. They were not promoting any extreme treatment or anything else. They just stated their views of the covid response .They argued that it was at the moment not appropriate as the actual death rate was coming down to severe flu season level. Anybody listening to that video would find nothing extraordinary or promoting bizarre treatment .Why did you tube take it down? See below
The American College of Emergency Physicians (ACEP) and the American Academy of Emergency Medicine (AAEM) jointly and emphatically condemn the recent opinions released by Dr. Daniel Erickson and Dr. Artin Massihi. These reckless and untested musings do not speak for medical societies and are inconsistent with current science and epidemiology regarding COVID-19. As owners of local urgent care clinics, it appears these two individuals are releasing biased, non-peer reviewed data to advance their personal financial interests without regard for… Read more »

Mark Hunter
Mark Hunter
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

Thanks for sharing this re-upload. I’ve been ripping videos that could be deleted and storing them in the cloud.

I would say I disagree with part of your phrasing, namely:
“They just stated their views of the covid response .”

In reality, they stated the findings of their analysis of the available data, that the chances of dying from the virus are 0.03%.

But I’m just nitpicking.

Willow
Willow
6 years ago
Reply to  Mark Hunter

It’s just simple maths though, not a “view”. For example the German study found infection rate 15% and IFR 0.37% Multiplying those probabilities together gives overall risk of dying from Covid 0.000555%

Oaks79
Oaks79
6 years ago

Another great interview by Journeyman Pictures with Knut Wittkowski who gets emotional at times and has a pop at a certain Prof Ferguson

https://youtu.be/k0Q4naYOYDw

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago
Reply to  Oaks79

Agree. The only one who at the start said the right things and has been proven correct.He is an epidemiologist and not a quack mathematician. On this site you have further comments from Wittkowski answering questions from viewers and clearing himself from smear from MSM
https://hailtoyou.wordpress.com/2020/04/27/against-the-corona-panic-pt-v-a-hero-of-the-hour-dr-knut-wittkowski/#us
His idea of paying every nurse or carers staying in the nursinghomes with the elderly during the 4 weeks epidemic 1 million $ would cost nothing compared with the lockdown.

ConcernedPerson
ConcernedPerson
6 years ago

I feel the media is completely ignoring how many 15- to 65-year-olds are currently dying in England according to EuroMoMo. It’s quite insane compared to the rest of Europe – including Sweden. So it’s impossible to be the work of the virus alone, the excess mortality is just wayyyyyyy too high. What gives? What’s going in England that’s not going on in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland, Sweden or even Italy?

giblets
giblets
6 years ago

Good spot, that is a strange anomaly! A few of the other badly affected countries have a minor blip (around 5 onthe Z scale (not sure what that represents), Spain has 10, the UK 30!!!?

https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/

Toby Old
Toby Old
6 years ago
Reply to  giblets

@giblets It’s not even the entire UK – just England. Very strange indeed…

Sunchap
Sunchap
6 years ago

We shall go on to the end: we shall hide in the houses, we shall hide in the garden sheds and in the basements. We shall destroy tourism and hospitality.

And if, which for a moment I don’t believe all the evidence points to this lockdown being pointless we shall ignore it. We shall kill those who are too scared to get cancer screening, we shall kill women, beaten up by their parents. We shall surrender our rights that we invented.

Sally
Sally
6 years ago

Lockdown zealots scare the hell out of me. It’s clear that no amount of evidence could ever sway them; if pushed, they merely dismiss concerns about collateral damage and argue that lockdown should have started earlier! Their belief is total, cult-like.

Climate scientists constantly warn us that we are likely to see the more frequent emergence of new and dangerous pathogens. No doubt all the world’s microbiologists are on the lookout for these, hoping to become the next Christian Drosten. Are we going to be pushed into early lockdown as soon as one of these events is recorded? What about the next nasty flu strain? I’m afraid that governments worldwide will have interpreted the public’s response to the current pandemic measures as enthusiastic consent to an even tougher response next time.

Sceptic
Sceptic
6 years ago
Reply to  Sally

The government tried to be reasonable but the pressure from external consultants (eg Ferguson) and MSM forced them to lock everything down. Imagine if all these deaths had happened without having taken drastic measures? Their popularity would have plummeted. So much of this is media fuelled public pressure – few governments can withstand it.

RDawg
RDawg
6 years ago
Reply to  Sceptic

The measures are as much about fear as they are about being seen to do the right thing. Boris only changed his mind from the herd immunity response because he knew it would make him so unpopular and lose him votes. So much of this is politically motivated.

RDawg
RDawg
6 years ago

I’m predicting a gradual, phased easing of lockdown in England and Wales, beginning Monday 11th May. I’m also predicting schools will return on Monday, 1st June, as this will be the first day of the final Summer half term.

I’m then going to suggest everything will be open (including pubs, restaurants etc.) by 29th June (but still with some restrictions and social distancing measures in place). By 1st September I’m predicting life should be as much of a return to “normal” as we can hope for, at least for the foreseeable.

What concerns me however, is what happens once normal cold and flu season starts to emerge around October time? How will Big Brother, sorry I mean the government, decipher between these normal symptoms and Covid?

Anyone else got any predictions/timetables of how things might pan out…?

Farinances
Farinances
6 years ago
Reply to  RDawg

I hope you’re right.

I suspect they’re gonna start associating more and more totally random symptoms ever more tenuously with Covid, so eventually anyone dying of falling off a building will have died of Covid! 😂

UrsulaG
UrsulaG
6 years ago

Huge thanks to people on this website, and to Toby for setting this up. I was shot down on Facebook by local people for having different views (ones based on evidence and facts, yet still compassionate). Somehow you’re a Nazi if you disagree with the unquestionable narrative.

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago

Just been sent a thread on twitter, people are falling out with doctors over the death of their relatives who have died from clearly diagnosed illnesses, cancer mainly, being issued with a death cert that says Covid, makes quite upsetting reading (although I realise it’s anecdotal) https://twitter.com/theramaman/status/1255121553639038981

AN other lockdown sceptic
AN other lockdown sceptic
6 years ago

The US media are waking up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBLXdKB-PjI

Watched the documentary TrustWHO on Amazon Prime this evening. Our friend Prof Neil had a mention. It was in reference to his funding from the Pharm industry. Link to a trailer for the film here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB-VQ-dNxxs

coalencanth12
coalencanth12
6 years ago

One issue I’ve been thinking about lately is this ‘new normal’ that is pushed by certain cabinet members, including the lamentable Nadine Dorries (how she in the cabinet!!??) – at least I suppose she has engaged on twitter – (didn’t she have an exchange with James Delingpole the other day?) On that note, it would be interesting to get some views on what is going on in cabinet – the briefing to the media seems poor and plays to the notion there is a lot of division between lockdown lovers and sceptics…

A lot of the implication of this is we have to put up with some of this quasi-lockdown twilight existence and police control until a vaccine candidate is (possibly!) found. Where does the consent for this come from? I noticed Sturgeon’s ‘release’ document contains much of the same fluffy, wokey language, and threats of repeated lockdowns ‘at short notice’. Many of these measures will have a devastating social and economic impact. I am lucky, I can to an extent ‘work’ from home, but I’m and experimental scientist and the impact on my morale is devastating, and from a social point of view I am trapped separated from most… Read more »

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  coalencanth12

What the flippin’ heck are Liberty and our lawyers doing? We need a legal challenge. Lord Sumption raised the alarm, I would hope there’s a JR in the offing.

Sceptic
Sceptic
6 years ago
Reply to  BecJT

Perhaps they’ve been ‘captured’ like everybody else

JASA
JASA
6 years ago
Reply to  BecJT

Indeed, what are Liberty doing. I wrote a longish e-mail to them last week about some treatments that have been suspended and I’ve heard nothing. I also wrote to three Human Rights firms and they’re not interested either. We’ve got to break through this wall and get the general public seeing the actual facts and really follow the science.

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  JASA

I wrote to Liberty twice, no reply. It’s so frustrating.

Jenny
Jenny
6 years ago
Reply to  coalencanth12

People might do better if they just organised themselves against lockdown and got on with life. If lawyers aren’t interested in helping the people then people will have to help themselves. It seems to have happened in Germany, there are reports on here where police entered a street said “go inside” and the outnumbering crowd just ignored them.

justinErtia
justinErtia
6 years ago

I think I have found the first part of the video clip of the “…two doctors in California making a number of sceptical points” here at bitchute. Lazily I have skipped a load of comments, any of which may have already pointed this out:
https://www.bitchute.com/video/u5LagTrnHltz/

Oldsoldier
Oldsoldier
6 years ago

Re the video of the two doctors in California which seems to have been blocked by YouTube, here it is on another platform: https://www.bitchute.com/video/FCvpDocILWmf/

Sceptic
Sceptic
6 years ago
Reply to  Oldsoldier

They seemed to have blocked that too, or bitshute is down

maud boggins
maud boggins
6 years ago
Reply to  Oldsoldier

Both YouTube and BitChute now have the video… an hour of the most sensible stuff you will hear on this so do try to watch y’all…..

Stephen McMurray
Stephen McMurray
6 years ago

I’ve made a petition
I need at least 21 people to sign it before they the petition team will check it to see if it can go ahead.
My petition:

Investigate the influence the pharmaceutical companies and vaccine industry has had on our government and their response to covid 19

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/318486/sponsors/new?token=g_lS82afU3vWimejdKpJ

On a similar matter – everyone keeps referring to Neil Ferguson as an epidemiologist but his linked-in profile and Wikipedia page says his degree is in physics. How does this qualify him to model the spread of an infectious disease?.

Mark Hunter
Mark Hunter
6 years ago

The first paragraph states he’s an epidemiologist. However, the citation for this takes you to an uncited profile page where his “specialities” include epidemiology.
https://acmedsci.ac.uk/fellows/fellows-directory/ordinary-fellows/fellow/Professor-Neil-Ferguson-0006236

Nel
Nel
6 years ago

When you select the link for your petition, it doesn’t state what the petition is for, it only asks for personal details. To that end we could be signing a petition for anything. If you can add the petition details you’ll probably get more people signing up for it.
It may also be good to add what monetary gains there may be.

Stephen McMurray
Stephen McMurray
6 years ago
Reply to  Nel

The government’s petition site is a bit confusing. they say they need 5 people initially and then they need to get to 21 signatories before they will even look at allowing it to be an ‘officially’ accepted petition. When that is agreed what the petition is actually for will be viewable.

The petition calls for an investigation into the influence the pharmaceutical companies and vaccine industry has had on our government and their response to covid 19

coalencanth12
coalencanth12
6 years ago

Doesn’t surprise me his first degree was in physics – this is true of a lot of mathematical modellers you will find a lot of this ilk in investment banks, google etc. It does mean however that his expertise is very much on the simulation side and there are a lot of things he won’t understand about the immunology, biochemistry, structural biology of the systems he deals with. Which would be another reason he is often wrong. You can also bet he doesn’t do a lot of the coal face stuff these days – he will have teams of PhD students and postdoc minions to that for him, like I do.

Old fred
Old fred
6 years ago
Reply to  coalencanth12

Problem is that many mathematical modellers seem to think everything to do with life, death and the universe can be translated into computer code. ‘The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy’ sums it up.

AN other lockdown sceptic
AN other lockdown sceptic
6 years ago

Prof. Ioannidis announces study results on SARS-CoV-2 infection fatality rate & mortality risk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ns5BdJYq0Uk

Peter Thompson
Peter Thompson
6 years ago

As a clinician I don’t do mathematical models but can still have a opinion as good I feel as Fergusson the soothsayer and his entrails. I think the number of covid19 patients will continue to decline whether there is a lockdown or we are all released from out house arrest tomorrow. The first wave is over.
There will be a second wave whether we prolong this lockdown or not and it will start December of this year. All coronaviruses wind up in the winter , and this one won’t be going anywhere. The question will be whether we insitute another ineffective lockdown then for weeks/ months . I suspect the economy will be so dire then that Boris will just keep to ” social distancing “

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago
Reply to  Peter Thompson

I fully agree. We could end the lockdown now and the infection will die out in May and June as all coronavirus do. The big question then if it would be extinguished like the previous SARS virus or reappear, as you say, during the winter period. People or more seriously, politician, don’t understand the epidemic Farr’s law which is similar to the Bell curve.
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/covid-19-william-farrs-way-out-of-the-pandemic/

After the peak it will slide down as fast as it went up after the peak of infection which is not the same as the peak of detected cases by PCR. The only important thing in this outbreak is the peak of death. You can back calculate the peak of infections from the peak of death minus 21-28 days (day of infection plus incubation time plus disease progression plus ICU admittance and time of death). This table from Oxford Evidence Based Medicine is interesting
https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/six-countries-three-quarters-of-the-covid-deaths/

Caveat the difficulty of defining the peak of death (see Belgium France with crazy statistics) it seems that Italy and UK made the lockdown too late to have any effect at all of flattening the curve and most likely the same with Spain.
The actual number of new infections was… Read more »

Sceptic
Sceptic
6 years ago

Censorship of Covid origins, treatments and care (eg the NY hospital) is becoming more prevalent and quite disturbing. All the platforms are now busy discrediting anyone, no matter how distinguished, whose opinions vary from an agreed ‘Newspeak’. In the past, crazier theories have abounded with little censorship, because most people do the research and work it out for themselves. They should be entitled to believe what they want as long as it doesn’t harm anyone. Sadly, this nanny state will probably get worse, perhaps because people are becoming more aware that ‘Newspeak’ isn’t necessarily ‘Truespeak’.

Mark Hunter
Mark Hunter
6 years ago
Reply to  Sceptic

And remember the 77th Brigade is involved, and their remit includes:

Audience, Actor and Adversary Analysis
Information Activity and Outreach
Counter-adversarial Information Activity
Support to Partners Across Government
Collecting media content
Disseminating Media

So, not shady at all.

swedenborg
swedenborg
6 years ago

https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/gemeinsamer-appell-von-prominenten-rasch-raus-aus-dem-corona-lockdown/25773378.html

This world is upside down. In the UK, the whole establishment is following the government directives like sheep. In Germany, which has one of the best outcomes of the covid-19 pandemic, the furore against the lockdown is growing by the day from all parts of society incl. prominent politicians, scientists, authors, philosophers and human right lawyers. They have come together as the link above highlights, with a frontal attack against the lockdown published in “Der Spiegel”
This is done from both a public health, economical and legal standpoint. One of the persons in the above petition is the Professor in Virology, Alexander von Kekule, Munich, who unfortunately this time around was the earlier advisor to Chancellor Merkel. He is a very prominent person, who early on in the pandemic, was advising for sensible wide range social distancing measure short of lockdown even before they were instituted in Germany.
I will give you a few sentences translated.
The lockdown is ruining our social, cultural and economic life. We must at the same time both protect our public health, economy and rule of law.
They argue that three main goals, economy, constitutional rights and life should not be competing objectives instead… Read more »

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

I’m not sure they are silent here, just that nobody is listening. CEBM are doing some good work. Excellent Germany is starting to rouse, I saw a video (I don’t speak German, but the gist was pretty clear) of residents refusing to go inside. There was one police van, several hundred ordinary residents, some with face masks pushed down around their necks, police officer was shouting through a megaphone ‘go back inside’ but the police were seriously outnumbered, it was all very polite and muted, but people just said ‘no’.

coalencanth12
coalencanth12
6 years ago
Reply to  swedenborg

I think the UK is very cowed at the minute, but for all the opinion polls, actions speak louder than words and the streets, roads and trains get fuller -I do think us Brits do quiet disobedience quite well. It’s rather funny that many of our cabinet members subscribe the ‘Brittania Unchained’ ideal, and here one of our traditional European rivals lifts herself out of the mire! I am very surprised the Deutschlanders have risen up first, I expected Spain or Italy to be the first domino but I guess they have rather a lot of paramilitary police to keep a lid on the dissent.

Jamie
Jamie
6 years ago
Reply to  coalencanth12

Germany spent years under Hitler, then half of it spent years under the Stasi, they know what dictatorships look like, they know how they start, they know what the result in. Germany since 1989 has been one of the strongest bastions of liberty, as they have recent memories of the alternatives.

Tim Bidie
Tim Bidie
6 years ago
Reply to  coalencanth12

I don’t get the impression that people are cowed; quite the reverse. A large number of people are militantly in favour of the lockdown. It seems to be some kind of populism of the left seeking redress for a couple of big national decisions that went against them.

The government plays along because, with the PMs illness, it currently is ‘out bleeding hearting’ the opposition, so retaining broad support, while it waits for the media narrative to turn. That narrative has switched already, to a degree, but will only become stridently anti lockdown once a crescendo of voices eventually reaches fever pitch regarding increased nursing home deaths, from non Covid 19 causes, and massive waiting lists (with inevitable consequences) for life threatening conditions.

The likelihood of such a renversement increases as the weather continues to warm, an effect on coronaviruses similar to that of sunlight on dracula………an opening of the curtains that will hopefully coax everyone out from behind the sofa.

Meanwhile, here’s a little song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3HQMbQAWRc

RDawg
RDawg
6 years ago

Has anyone seen this Knut Wittkowski video on why we should not be locking down?

https://youtu.be/lGC5sGdz4kg

Dr. Wittkowski received his PhD in computer science from the University of Stuttgart and his ScD (Habilitation) in Medical Biometry from the Eberhard-Karls-University Tuüingen, both Germany. He worked for 15 years with Klaus Dietz, a leading epidemiologist who coined the term “reproduction number”, on the Epidemiology of HIV before heading for 20 years the Department of Biostatistics, Epidemiology, and Research Design at The Rockefeller University, New York. Dr. Wittkowski is currently the CEO of ASDERA LLC, a company discovering novel treatments for complex diseases from data of genome-wide association studies.

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  RDawg

Yes I did, Facebook are now removing that video as ‘fake news’, I thought he spoke a lot of sense, and the whole ‘perspectives on the pandemic’ series was great.

RDawg
RDawg
6 years ago
Reply to  BecJT

It’s scandalous that anyone who speaks out against the lockdown measures is being labelled as “fake news”. How is this a free and democratic society if we do not allow freedom of speech from the opposition? This is not some crazed nutter; it is a man with 35 years’ expertise on fighting epidemics, who has an opinion and whose voice deserves to be heard. Why is Ferguson’s opinion more valid than Wittkowski’s?

BecJT
BecJT
6 years ago
Reply to  RDawg

I know, it’s dreadful. Facebook do it all the time, unfortunately, and twitter, and youtube are now deleting eminent opinions as well.

scuzzaman
scuzzaman
6 years ago

Everybody who reads here, no matter what you believe or what you think or what you think you know, should read Michael Crighton’s speech on Fear, Complexity and Environmental Management in the 21st Century.

Here’s the most pertinent of a number of highly pertinent points he makes:

” … Now, Chernobyl started me on a new path. As I researched these old fears, to find out what had been said in the past, I made several important discoveries. The first is that there is nothing more sobering than a 30 year old newspaper. You can’t figure out what the headlines mean. You don’t know who the people are. Theodore Green, John Sparkman, George Reedy, Jack Watson, Kenneth Duberstein. You thumb through page after page of vanished concerns—issues that apparently were vitally important at the time, and now don’t matter at all. It’s amazing how many pressing concerns are literally of the moment. They won’t matter in six months, and certainly not in six years. *And if they won’t matter then, are they really worth our attention now?*

But as David Brinkley once said, “The one function TV news performs very well is that when there is no news we give… Read more »

Tim Bidie
Tim Bidie
6 years ago

The latest mortality figures from the office of national statistics are high:

‘The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 17 April 2020 (Week 16) was 22,351; this represents an increase of 3,835 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 15) and 11,854 more than the five-year average; this is the highest weekly total recorded since comparable figures begin in 1993.’

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending17april2020

But mortality by age distribution seems pretty much normal.

Regarding healthcare workers: ‘…..the data does not clearly show that healthcare workers are dying at rates proportionately higher than other employed individuals or even the population as a whole.’

https://www.hsj.co.uk/exclusive-deaths-of-nhs-staff-from-covid-19-analysed/7027471.article

An overwhelming majority of ‘Covid 19’ deaths had several pre-existing conditions.

‘Of the 3,912 deaths that occurred in March 2020 involving COVID-19, 3,563 (91%) had at least one pre-existing condition, while 349 (9%) had none. The mean number of pre-existing conditions was 2.7. The most common main pre-existing condition was ischaemic heart diseases’

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsinvolvingcovid19englandandwales/deathsoccurringinmarch2020

So, if mortality distribution by age is normal, healthcare worker mortality rates are normal and 91% of ‘Covid 19’ deaths already have an average of 2.7 pre-existing conditions, mainly heart disease, what, precisely, is the problem?

It… Read more »

Margaret
Margaret
6 years ago
Reply to  Tim Bidie

I clicked on your first link above. If you scroll down the ONS statistics, you come to point 11 “Strengths and limitations of the data” if you then click on the link “impact of registration delays release” scroll down to point 3 “The delay between death occurrence and registration has increased in 2018” and look at figure 2. Am I reading it correctly? I did not realise that there were such long delays in registering deaths these days and although this data only goes up to 2018, I don’t suppose the last two years would show any great improvement in the figures.
Likewise on the NHS England statistics page showing Covid deaths in hospital by date of death, deaths registered today go back as far as March 19th and are scattered throughout March and April according to the orange bars.
It makes me wonder WHEN the recorded deaths w/e 17th April actually took place.

Willow
Willow
6 years ago

Like everyone else I’m feeling really quite powerless and desperate to get out of this. In America, a food producer paid to take out a full page ad. in a national newspaper because it was the only way to warn people that the supply chain was breaking. Well… Could we do something like that? Could we get something professionally done to just get the point across that lockdown is catastrophic and not science led. Could we crowd fund it?

Willow
Willow
6 years ago
Reply to  Willow

Another idea : could we get the skeptical scientists to write a scientific paper together? Or to write an open letter that large numbers of them sign? And that could be published in the papers as an advert? Surely there is something that would penetrate the blocked ears of the decision makers?

Bob
Bob
6 years ago
Reply to  Willow

Interesting about the newspaper advert. Do you have a link to that?

Totally agree about doing something to indicate dissatisfaction.

AN other lockdown sceptic
AN other lockdown sceptic
6 years ago
Reply to  Willow

That’s a very good idea.

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