The Importance of Questioning Western Foreign Policy

Supplying arms to Ukraine *may* work, but we shouldn’t just assume it’s the right policy. The best thing the West can do is pressure both sides to negotiate, in the hope of a reaching some kind of settlement.

5 min read

I would like to thank Ian for his response to my post about the morality of supplying arms to Ukraine. However, I find it odd that he describes my post as “wrong on every level”, since its purpose was to express reservations/raise doubts about the policy of arming Ukraine, rather than to argue forcefully against doing so.

I said it is “by no means clear” that supplying arms is the right thing to do; I did not say that supplying arms is definitely the wrong thing to do. Moreover, I said: “it’s entirely possible that, thanks to all the arms we’ve sent, the Ukrainians will either defeat the Russians, or will hold out long enough to bargain for a good settlement”.

Does Ian believe that it’s “wrong on every level” to express reservations/raise doubts about pouring billions of dollars worth of weapons into foreign country? Does he disagree with my conclusion that Western leaders should at least be considering the possibility that arming Ukraine could do more harm than good?

The only policy of which I expressed strong disapproval, and of which I continue to disapprove strongly, was that of turning Ukraine into ‘another Afghanistan’. I will now address some of Ian’s specific points.

He suggests that my main argument was that “by providing weaponry, the West might prolong a war, and thus prolong hardship”. This isn’t quite right. My main argument was that by providing weaponry, the West might prolong a war to such an extent that the average Ukrainian would be worse off than if those arms hadn’t been provided.

To support this argument, I drew an analogy with the Syrian Civil War, suggesting that ordinary Syrians might be better off today if the US had not armed rebel groups. Ian may disagree with this suggestion, or may believe the Syrian Civil War is not a good analogy, but it’s important to clarify exactly what I said.

Ian claims my argument could be applied to any conflict where one side is “able to inflict sufficient harm on the populace of its enemy”, but that isn’t true. I considered the possible consequences of supplying arms, and claimed that “a very bloody conflict that drags on for ten years” would be worse than Russian annexation of half the country.

He may disagree with this claim. But it doesn’t mean that what I was saying is: whenever one side can inflict a lot of harm on the other, you should just let that side win.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that a reasonable worst-case scenario is Russia killing every last Ukrainian. In that case, the argument for supplying arms would be overwhelming, as no outcome could be worse for ordinary Ukrainians than this. Hence I was not signing up to any sort of “aggressors’ charter”.

Ian then claims that, under my line of argument, freedom becomes “something like a subjective value judgement” rather than “an absolute moral right”. Here he’s correct – this is what I was arguing. (By “freedom”, I think he means ‘the freedom not to live under foreign occupation’.)

There are two reasons why I believe this. First, as I’ve already tried to make clear, some things are worse than living under foreign occupation, such as living in a perpetual warzone. Personally, I would prefer to live under Russian rule than in somewhere like Syria circa 2014. He may have a different preference. But clearly people do disagree.

Second, if you take the view that freedom is “an absolute moral right”, then the West should be intervening in every conflict around the world where people believe they’re living under foreign occupation.

Many Palestinians believe this. Should we supply arms to the Palestinians? Many Yemenis believe this. Should we supply arms to the Yemenis? Many Iraqis believed it in 2003. Should we have supplied arms to the Iraqis, rather than joining the American-led invasion of that country?

I would add that the situation in Ukraine is more complicated than he suggests. Yes, outside Crimea and the Donbass, the majority of Ukrainians (probably the vast majority) oppose Russian annexation. However, this does not mean there’s a simple choice between freedom on the one hand and tyranny on the other.

For example, many ethnically Russian Ukrainians strongly oppose the post-Maidan government’s decisions to ban Russian media, arrest opposition leaders, and abolish minority language rights. To be clear: I’m not saying these things justify Putin’s invasion. But they’re clearly violations of people’s freedom.

Toward the end of his article, Ian implies that I was trying to ‘second-guess’ the preferences of the Ukrainian people. And that’s true. But by taking the opposing position, he’s doing the exact same thing. Neither of us has any data, and at this point in the conflict reliable data would be very difficult to gather.

What’s more, I didn’t dispute that there are many Ukrainians who want to fight. I merely asked whether they will be “just as keen to fight if the war drags on for months or even years”.

By way of conclusion, let me reiterate that supplying arms to Ukraine may work, but we shouldn’t just assume it’s the right policy. From where I stand, the best thing the West can do is pressure both sides to negotiate, in the hope of a reaching some kind of settlement – like the one John Mearsheimer suggested in 2014.

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201 Comments
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John
4 years ago

After having read a number of the comments below, I feel it would be helpful to clarify just who is _not_ in actual control of Western and Western-aligned ‘democracies’. IMHO, such an understanding is crucial in assessing Establishment policies and actions.

In a manner akin to that of a prosecutor laying out a case for a jury, John Titus walks us through the evidence:

* * * All the Plenary’s Men * * *

Starring:

Adair Turner, George Osborne, Mervyn King, Mark Carney, Ben Bernanke and Timothy Geithner.

Supporting cast:

Loretta Lynch, Lanny Breuer and Eric Holder.

Talent coordinator:

Goldman Sachs.

56:41
Apr 28, 2017
BestEvidence
All the Plenary’s Men – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gK3s5j7PgA

Backup link and description:

“This incredibly well researched documentary by John Titus tells the real life tale illustrating how the financial systems of the world are nothing more than global criminal banking cartels immune to law. The story covers HSBC’s exoneration in December 2012 for laundering money for drug dealers and terrorists, and sadly this documentary didn’t get nearly the scrutiny it deserved. You see, prosecutors working on the HSBC case were actually going to indict the bank, but they got overruled, and HSBC and its team… Read more »

kate
kate
4 years ago

Russia Mod: Briefing on analysis of documents related to US military and biological activities in Ukraine

http://thesaker.is/russia-mod-briefing-on-analysis-of-documents-related-to-us-military-and-biological-activities-in-ukraine/

We believe that components of biological weapons were created on the territory of Ukraine

Here is a document dated March 6, 2015, confirming the Pentagon’s direct participation in the financing of military biological projects in Ukraine.
From our point of view, the interest of US military biologists is due to the fact that these pathogens have natural foci both on the territory of Ukraine and in Russia, and their use can be disguised as natural outbreaks of diseases. 
The documents received by the Russian Ministry of Defence indicate that research in this area is systematic and has been conducted since at least 2009 under the direct supervision of specialists from the United States within the framework of projects P-382, P-444 and P-568. 

During the implementation of these projects, six families of viruses (including coronaviruses) and three types of pathogenic bacteria (pathogens of plague, brucellosis and leptospirosis) were identified. This is due to the main characteristics of these pathogens that make them favourable for the purposes of infection: resistance to drugs, rapid speed of spread from animals to humans, etc.

https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/13.1.0/svg/25ab.svgIt is necessary to note… Read more »

kate
kate
4 years ago
Reply to  kate

Found this comment on Igor’s newsletter: no idea if it is true.
Didn’t Bill Gates mention a smallpox outbreak caused by terrorism at one time?

The US-Ukraine biolabs will throw a spanner in the forget-the-covid-now handiwork.

Both the Russians and the Chinese are after the U.S. bioweapons, and they are mighty motivated

Word of mouth from a military source in the area: Chimeric SARS-smallpox construct found either physically or in lab documentation; projected mortality, 80%.

If I recall correctly, official Russian sources mentioned H5N1 flu lab discovery; projected mortality, 50%.

kate
kate
4 years ago

https://newtube.app/TonyHeller/jTsKJdR

The deep state curtain is pulled back but how to turn the current narrative is another question.

chris-ds
chris-ds
4 years ago

So the New York post and speccie are claiming there is legs to the hunter Biden story and that Biden juniors 2014 involvement in Ukraine May have something to do with the current war.

trump was a liability but far less lethal than sleepy joe.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-did-the-media-cover-up-the-hunter-biden-laptop-story-

kate
kate
4 years ago

Sanctions war against Russia is failing. China and India harden their stance against sanctions on Russia
Rouble has not dropped as catastrophically as Biden regime wished. Could not collapse Russian economy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLBC1xXRZp4&ab_channel=TheDuran

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  kate

Can we cut the Putin propaganda machine for a day or two?

JayBee
JayBee
4 years ago

Again: Neither the Western ‘global strategists’, diplomats, foreign policy politicians nor the Ukrainian fanatics are stupid.
As such, they must have fully understood and agreed with Putin, Kissinger, Mearsheimer&co, namely that Ukraine can only prosper and live in peace if it stays neutral and does not discriminate against its Russian population.
Ergo, they WANTED this war, did everything they could to get it and are in truth now very happy they finally got it. (See the link inc. a video below where one of Zelenskyy’s chief military advisers even outright stated just that.)

Only the deluded and naive could have thought otherwise and only they and the fanatics think that Russia will lose, NATO should get involved, more weapons should be delivered and that this can and will then end with Russian regime change and a by Russia forever accepted Ukrainian NATO membership.

But all these criminals and idi*ts are indeed now surprised and mortified by Russia hooking up with China, the RoW not going along with the sanctions and the disastrous de-dollarization effect of their stupid, criminal and suicidal abolition of property rights, aka sanctions.
That is why they are now desperate and getting ever more shrill, volatile, incoherent… Read more »

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  JayBee

Putin’s Russia discriminates against all kinds of minorities.

In Russia, a website such as this one which criticises the government, would be shut down. And you would be in jail.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

If he/she/”they” was/are or possibly were lucky….

Arturo Francese
Arturo Francese
4 years ago

I can only re-iterate what was already said. Our PM and most part of MPs don’t care about Ukrainians, but it’s convinient for them now blame everything on the russian bogeyman. I’m surprised they have not attempted yet to blame him for the poor performance of the vaccine.

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago

Give it a rest, Carl. Stop digging.

enlighteneduk
enlighteneduk
4 years ago

The more I research this situation the more I realise that the real aggressors are the USA and UK. They are leading the way for the World Economic Forum’s ‘Great Reset’. Brexit? Forget it! Boris is selling us straight into the arms of his Globalist mentors! Putin passionately believes in Russia’s sovereignty and has warned the West against Globalism. The sheer depth and breadth of the WEF’s training programmes aimed at government and education infiltration, is mind blowing. Putin is fighting to retain his nation’s sovereignty. I for one, feel ashamed to be British.

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago
Reply to  enlighteneduk

You’re no less misguided than the Guardian readers who are ashamed to be white.

Pilla
Pilla
4 years ago

I completely agree with timsk below, though I think Noah has done a good job within the limitations of his argument(s) (and I doubt I would agree with ‘Ian’, whose article I haven’t read). Everyone would do well to listen to Lara Logan, an award-winning journalist, on what’s going on in Ukraine, and to Whitney Webb in her interview with Robert F Kennedy Jr ‘The CiA’s pervasive involvement in Ukraine’ (based on her article ‘Ukraine and the new Al Qaeda’).

Why anyone believes or trusts our MSM now, after two years or more of lies and more lies is beyond me.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Pilla

Why do you believe Putin, who has lied repeatedly in the last few weeks?

Draper233
Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Your anti-Putin obsession is fanatical. 

The poster offered two WESTERN sources with non-mainstream opinions and yet you respond by saying – why believe Putin?

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

Firstly, Putin’s lies are indisputable as they include the claim that he had no intention of invading and ‘there is no war’. I assume you agree with that.

Secondly, the West is a free country and all views are permitted, including fringe views. Lara Logan is an outright conspiracy theorist who was so incompetent as a journalist that she was sacked from Fox News. Which takes some doing.

Draper233
Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

The West’s lies are indisputable and their hypocrisy is breath-taking. Your argument seems to be – yes the West lies, but Putin lies more. That’s still debatable.

And presumably you must have missed all the censorship in the MSM and Big Tech over the last two years?

I think you’re misinterpreting comments as being pro-Putin when they’re not. It just happens that Putin’s enemy in the “information war” happens to be mine.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

What’s the West? It’s dozens of governments and thousands of media outlets. Between they cover every end of the spectrum.

What’s Putin’s Russia? One single controlled line. Putin is personally responsible for all the lies, because nothing happens unless he allows it.

Absolutely you’re being pro-Putin whether you want to or not. You’re equating the total state control of media under`Putin with the chaos of the west.

Do you actually know any journalists? Do you realise how impossible it is for the UK government to control them?

kate
kate
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Get real.
Ever heard of the “Trusted News Initiative”?

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  kate

You think the Trusted News Initiative is in any way equivalent to the arrest of journalists in Russia?

It’s like saying a slap on the wrist is morally equivalent to execution.

Putin is aggressively anti democratic. But maybe you don’t like democracy. Maybe you prefer it Putin-style.

Draper233
Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Your one-sided blinkeredness is embarrassing, unless of course you’re part of the state apparatus – that would make sense.

And in response to your other comment, trying to caricature those of us on this side of the argument as crazy conspiracy theorists is indicative of your pathetic obsequiousness to the establishment.

As for “being pro-Putin whether you want to or not” – too bad. Putin hasn’t done anything to me, whereas the UK establishment (including its MSM) declared war on me as an individual in March 2020.

I will never forgive and never forget. The battle goes on.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

Putin’s agents killed Dawn Sturgess, an ordinary British citizen.

mojo
mojo
4 years ago

When will the West be told the real truth. Russia is winning this war. They have created humanitarian corridors. Civilians have not been killed in a y numbers as the bio labs and military sites have been the target. The Russians want to remove the dangerous forces from the ground as the British wanted to do in Germany during 1940s.

when will the West learn to to tell the truth to its citizens. Ukraine was bought by CIA. The Laptop from Hell had most of the evidence of Democrat/Globalist treachery.

When will the West learn they cannot keep walking into countries they desire to control and change the government after destroying the people and their culture. There is now a political shift in the East of the World where y the Americans are hated and the dollar is going to be destroyed. Where does that leave Europe??? It’s time the British Government stopped following the Globalist EU and doing what America wants to appease any tantrums.

The people of Western countries are going to have such a deep and painful shock when they realise the lies that have been fed them. Their taxes have been used for warmongering… Read more »

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  mojo

Putin has lied repeatedly and obviously in the last few weeks (eg “we won’t invade’, ‘there is no war’, ‘we have no casualties’).

This is supposed to be website for sceptics. Be sceptical!

Draper233
Draper233
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

I see you didn’t even bother trying to defend the accusation of Western propaganda. Just turned it into another attack on Putin.

The point is, we’re supposed to have liberalist values in the West. It’s not Putin that’s undermining them, it’s our own establishment.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Draper233

It’s extraordinary and sad to witness the unrelenting attack on free media since 9/11, while people instead put blind faith in random things they find on the internet and state propaganda channels.

There are circa 10 million refugees coming out of Ukraine – the biggest exodus since WW2. But according to Putin News, the Russians never hit civilian areas, it’s the Ukrainians bombing themselves. And people here…they believe it!

This website is looking more like a QAnon get-together every day.

godders
godders
4 years ago

At the rate Ukrainians are fleeing their benighted country we should be sending them legs, not arms.
That strange sound you can hear above the gunfire and bomb blasts is Klaus Schwab and the Great Resetters applauding the success of their proxy war.
When the feck is the world going to wake up and start taking on our real enemies – the oligarchs of the WEF and their political acolytes?

Sontol
Sontol
4 years ago

Earthquake monitoring stations across the globe are scratching their heads over an inexplicable event measuring 8 on the Richter Scale located about 100 miles south of Moscow.

It is being caused by the great anti-war / anti-nationalism / pro-spirituality writer Lev Tolstoy spinning in his Yasnya Polyana grave.

He is particularly perturbed that the Russian Orthodox Church (from which he was excommunicated) continues to pretend that mass murder and destruction (in this case a ‘Special Military Operation’) can be carried out in the name of Jesus – a man who gave up his life in the name of peace.

Sontol
Sontol
4 years ago
Reply to  Sontol

PS to my above – It is of course ‘Richter Scale’ rather than ‘Richer Scale’ (must have been a shockwave that made my hand slip!), have asked mods to correct.

Dylan2021
Dylan2021
4 years ago

The West shouldn’t have supplied arms, money, intelligence and special forces operatives, and training to the 10% Nazi element in the Ukrainian military and politics and then directed them to direct fire at civilians in Donbass for 8 years.

But it did.

Why?

Because it wanted war. It wants dead civilians in the forefront of the media, which is why they are arming the civilians with peashooters, or at most rifles with 10 rounds and not allowing them to leave.

The truth will out eventually.

Gregoryno6
Gregoryno6
4 years ago

I don’t know the rights and wrongs of Russia V Ukraine. But I look at the people lining up against Putin, with Foggy Groper front of the line, and I ask myself if I can support any movement that they support.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  Gregoryno6

Yep: I tend to think that if Johnson is for it, I’m against it.

GlassHalfFull
GlassHalfFull
4 years ago

I’m convinced “that supplying arms is definitely the wrong thing to do.”
It will prolong the inevitable Russian victory and cause more unnecessary deaths. 

Any foreign arms entering Ukraine is a legitimate target.

Israel has been destroying arms shipments in Syria with impunity for years.

artfelix
artfelix
4 years ago

Is arming a CIA-backed, neo-Nazi collaborating regime wrong?

On every level, yes

John
4 years ago

Mr. Putin and his colleagues have good reasons to mistrust NATO’s intentions, given the latter’s mendacity and history of ruthless disregard for the lives of its own constituent members’ citizens and those of sovereign nations which run afoul of international finance’s globalist intrigues.

This includes a year-by-year map of NATO’s eastward encroachment:

Enlargement of NATO – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO

“U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University”

December 12, 2017
New Documents: US Promised Not to Expand NATO Eastward | MLToday
https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-nato-eastward/
https://archive.fo/y3M9h
https://archive.vn/y3M9h

17m27s
Jul 20, 2021
CaspianReport
Why Russia wants to restore the Soviet borders – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwzliJF0-SI

2 August 2019
INF nuclear treaty: US pulls out of Cold War-era pact with Russia – BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49198565
https://archive.fo/Iizkd
https://archive.ph/Iizkd

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  John

Baker’s comments relate only to the territory of the former GDR. The specific terms of that commitment were upheld. Remember, at this point both the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact were still in existence!

It has been shown many times that no treaty exists which comes anywhere near what Russia claims. Putin himself wanted to join NATO after this date, which would have made the biggest nonsense of this claim you could possibly get.

John
4 years ago
Reply to  John

A de facto piece of propaganda via omission which implicates Putin in the Baader-Meinhof Gang / Red Army Faction acts of terror in Western Europe without making any mention of NATO’s stay-behind armies aka Operation Gladio as being the actual cause of said terrorism (links below).

8:21
Mar 13, 2022
Mark Felton Productions
Vladimir Putin – KGB Agent – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2_EFJLWA6o

This Wikipedia link includes plenty of corroborative external links re NATO’s stay-behind armies and their involvement in false flag acts of domestic terror in Western Europe as a means of dissuading the public from voting for socialist politicians.

Operation Gladio – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

“Ganser demonstrates, in forensic detail, that the terrorist attacks in European – especially Italian – cities, through the 1970-80’s and universally attributed to extreme left-wing groups – allegedly bent on installing communist governments – were overwhelmingly the carefully planned responsibility of extreme right-wing groups, financed, armed and protected by the most senior levels of Western Intelligence and NATO.”

Nato’s Secret Armies – Wikispooks
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Nato%27s_Secret_Armies

56:53
ez4me2c2
NATO’s Secret Armies
https://ugetube.com/watch/nato-039-s-secret-armies_xTtEzAjnbsKmrWW.html

NATO’s Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe (Contemporary Security Studies): Ganser Daniele: 9780714685007:
https://www.amazon.com/NATOs-Secret-Armies-Operation-Contemporary/dp/0714685003

“Originally aired on BBC2 in 1992, ‘Operation Gladio’ reveals… Read more »

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  John

Lots of conspiracy stuff here that has nothing to do with NATO’s alleged Eastern expansion.

The simple and obvious point is that Baker can’t have been making a promise not to expand into Poland, the Baltics, Hungary and Ukraine, because at the time they were still in the Warsaw Pact!

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Another propagandistic armwave without engaging with the evidence, typical example why everyone considers you a troll.

Are you saying GLADIO didn’t exist? Because that’s a ridiculous position given the plethora of evidence from Italian and Belgen court documents alone.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

GLADIO did exist, although not at the level that conspiracists like to claim. But we could fill 100 pages arguing about that and forget why we started..

Specifically, when it comes to claims made about Baker’s ‘not an inch further east’ comment, they are absurd. He can’t possibly have been talking about a set of countries which at the time were still fully paid up members of the Warsaw Pact.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

You Sir, are an outright liar, and a complete fraud.

1) Strawman, nobody is spouting “conspiracy theories” John has gone to the trouble to find the research and has linked the evidence for people to make their own minds up. Nobody is theorising about anything, except YOU

2) His post said nothing about Baker, more stawmanney, it’s mentioned in the previous post.

3) Johns previous post inludes links to the primary evidence from when quotes can be read:

The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”

.

(see Document 1) informed Washington that Genscher made clear “that the changes in Eastern Europe and the German unification process must not lead to an ‘impairment of Soviet security interests.’ Therefore, NATO should rule out an ‘expansion of its territory towards the east, i.e. moving it closer to the Soviet borders.’” The Bonn cable also noted Genscher’s proposal to leave the East German territory out of NATO military structures even in a unified Germany in NATO.[3]

.

the British… Read more »

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

The Feb 9 meeting reported above was only the second of 4 bilateral meetings between the key players. It wasn’t the final position, it was part of the negotiations.

No treaty was signed on the 9th.

By the end of the 4th bilateral meeting on Feb 24-5th, Kohl & Baker agreed to go for full NATO membership of a united Germany. The policy was essentially to ‘bribe’ Gorbachev to accept it, because East Germany and Russia were in economic crisis. It worked, and that’s what Gorbachev agreed to in a final meeting in July.

porgycorgy
porgycorgy
4 years ago

Simply put – it’s clearly a proxy war. ‘The West’ has refused to address Russia’s deep concerns and has embarked on a mission to ‘cancel’ and demonise Russia, using the Ukrainians to do their dirty work and pay the price. Zelensky is of course ‘a puppet’. Russia’s main crime is not Crimea, nor even this war – it is that it stands in the way of the woke revolution being used by globalist elites to seize control. Putin frequently makes speeches decrying the way in which western countries are destroying their own culture. How they hate him…

.Many sceptics are still swallowing all the lies being told…. but as with Covid, the truth will see daylight eventually. And yet, the prospect of a wider conflict being provoked by lunatics like Biden is frightening.

JamesM
JamesM
4 years ago
Reply to  porgycorgy

Yes, I believe this gets very much to the heart of the matter. A couple of years ago I had a heated conversation with an influential “progressive” Democrat who made no secret of the fact that he sought the creation of a woke globalist government. It was clear his aim would require the destruction of Russia as a cultural entity, which could perhaps be achieved through a process of cultural imperialism, or war. It is disappointing that so many conservatives have been totally duped by these “progressives”.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

Look at the buyer remorse amongst those who lashed out emotionally. Our next ten years is going to be be much harder and much poorer. Which is fine for those who accepted the cost. Most will just lash out. The point is that all of this could have been seen beforehand. We allowed things to descend into this madness.

Moderate Radical
Moderate Radical
4 years ago

Indeed, Rons’s response to Carl’s previous article was largely a straw nonbinary, was haphazard, and seemingly knee-jerk. No disrespect to Rons, but he seemed more eager to make a response rather than think through a response.

I’ve been struck by the level of argumentation on the Russia-Ukraine issue in these comments sections. The level of knowledge and rationality has been astoundingly good*, and I don’t mean that in the sense that I am surprised; on the contrary, I am not at all surprised given the general quality on this forum. I’m just impressed.

I’m a relative neophyte in this area. In terms of history, I’m more up on Christian history, apostolic fathers, church fathers, much of British/English history. I’ve laregely limited my comments concerning this issue to trying to point out some errors in reasoning, almost all from the ‘anti-Russia/Putin’ side (which is telling if albeit on an anecdotal level). I knew a bit about this situation, but tellingly, I knew enough to know there is nuance and historical context, and that this whole Russia-Ukraine issue is not a black and white issue.

*I have followed up on the many comments/claims I have seen, and with few exceptions nearly every… Read more »

Star
Star
4 years ago

The Azov Regiment are allowed to have a Twitter account. Just sayin’.

Fortunately it seems someone has taken down their website ( http://azov.org.ua/ ) .

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

Try to get your own shithole in order before pronouncing judgement on anyone elses. Trust me you are not coming from a position of strength.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

Get your wife and children used to cold baths and similar austerities. This is the time where we all become feral. I welcome other feral types.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

Those holding the shares don’t want any real action and yet they are going to get it. Is this an injustice? It really isn’t. We the people sniff your lies. Trust me not a single one of you will get away on my watch.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

Don’t treat it as an abstraction or a war on foreign soil. Many have captured on video the movements into Poland and this is thousands of tanks. There is no pleasant resolution and the consequences will hit our shores in a couple of weeks.Hopefully you will develop networks of survival amongst your neighbours.You don’t have much hope beyond that.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago

It doesn’t matter to the UK which bits are ruled from Moscow and which from Kiev.

Deaths would be minimised by a swift Russian victory.

That’s essentially it.

Oh, and people who have recently started typing Kyiv rather than Kiev are utter twats.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Oh, and people who have recently started typing Kyiv rather than Kiev are utter twats.

Why?

Are you saying the Ukranian government are utter tawts now?
https://www.kmu.gov.ua/en/mediagallery/zayavi-premyer-ministriv-ukrayini-litvi-ta-polshchi-pislya-zustrichi-u-kiyevi

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

We speak English.

The English name for the city is Kiev.

Just like the English names are Peking, Bombay, Cologne and Florence.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Language evolves, it was the Ukranian government that decided to change it in 1995, you think people who don’t respect that decision are “utter twats” “Because we speak English” doesn’t quite work in any logical sense.

http://www.uazone.net/Kiev_Kyiv.html

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

The Ukrainian government has zero say on the English language.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Niether do you.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Well, I’m able to point out that, until a few weeks ago, I’d never seen a single English speaker spell it Kyiv.

Which supports my argument that those now spelling it that way are twats.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

All you’re doing is proving you don’t keep up, along with those you read.

The Oxford English dictionary used “Kyiv” in 2018

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Did it use it as an alternative spelling or the only permissible spelling?

And can you supply any examples of ordinary English speakers spelling it Kyiv before the Russian invasion?

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Blimey you’re at the level of stamping your feet now, you think the OED arn’t English speakers or something?

I’m done

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

“I’m done” = “I’ve lost”

I’ve established that you’re a dishonest idiot, so that will save me valuable minutes from now on.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

“I’m done” = “I’ve lost”

Don’t be silly, if you walk away from a “Karen” ranting it doesn;t mean you’ve lost anything, it’s means you can’t be arsed engaging on a purile level.

tree
tree
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Well there has been quite an educational phase in the last few weeks.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  tree

Nothing has happened that requires us to change our spelling.

huxleypiggles
huxleypiggles
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Yawn.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

Do you think the French should stop calling London Londres? Or the UK Royaume Uni?

And why aren’t the twats who say Mumbai calling India Bharat?

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

It turns out you may have had a point, you just failed to make it very well. I spoke to my Ukranian friend last night, he explained it was all part of the culture wars in Ukraine, designed to rip the Russian heritage from half the country, to divide people. So I asked him why he’d been using “Kyiv”, he said he just got in the habbit when writing in English, (he learnt English from joining a gaming community) it’s not a big deal.

Fingerache Philip
Fingerache Philip
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

The French pronounce Paris, Paree, we don’t.

Aelfsige
Aelfsige
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Moskva, not Moscow. Please keep up.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

You could get a job as Chamberlain’s speechwriter:

“How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!’

Cecil B
Cecil B
4 years ago

Putin says Ukraine is part of Russia and has always been part of Russia

Therefore by his own logic is Putin attacking and killing his own people?

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Cecil B

He is, but according to him it’s the Ukrainian government that’s killing all its own people.

How they manage to hold off the entire Russian army at the same time is not explained.

artfelix
artfelix
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

Holding off = losing territory 4x as fast as they lost it to Germany during operation Barbarossa. Russia seem to be “losing” spectacularly well.

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  artfelix

In Barbarossa, the Soviets lost 10x as many aircraft as the entire Ukrainian Air Force – on the first day.

I totally expected Putin’s invasion to roll over Ukraine about as fast as his tanks could travel. Unfortunately they had neglected to carry enough petrol.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  Fingal

“Let’s imagine that the Russian plan is to conquer all of Ukraine.

Then, when they fail to meet the the objectives we’ve invented, we can say they’ve failed.”

Fingal
Fingal
4 years ago
Reply to  Nearhorburian

Well, if you want to believe Putin when he says this war is going to plan, that’s up to you.

Kyiv looks out of reach, and maybe even Kharkiv. However Putin is going to take Mariopul soon, which will probably be a cause for wild celebration on this website. That will give him a complete south coast connection to Crimea, which is something he could ‘sell’ to his public.

Unfortunately, if he refuses to hand back that same coastal strip in negotiations, then the war can’t end.

Long wars are won by the countries with the deepest pockets. I can’t think another case where one side has been so totally outclassed economically, as Putin is by the west.

Star
Star
4 years ago

Summary from today’s news:

1. Volodymyr Zelensky says he wants peace talks, and that Ukraine’s proposals are on the table. [I hope this is true, but I couldn’t find what the Ukrainian proposals actually are. Great reporting standards, eh, MSM news desks?]

2. Liz Truss says peace talks are a “Putin ploy”. [This is called a “Let’s You and Him Fight” policy. Too bad if you’re in the Ukraine. How the hell will peace come about unless the Moscow and Kiev governments talk to each other and reach an agreement? Truss makes it crystal clear that her order-givers, which is to say the commanding interests in the weapons companies, the White House, and the CIA, want the war to continue. They are sh*tting on the main hope for a quick peace, and the MSM are helping them. A state whose foreign minister says what Truss says is warmongering for sure. And the “irony” is that the very same MSM tells us that Zelensky’s government itself has made peace proposals and it wants peace talks. We are supposed to read those words and not understand them.]

3. Boris Johnson says Vladimir Putin is panicking about the prospect of revolution in Russia.… Read more »

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago

Perhaps there are concerns beyond practicalities and consequences. If I had an eleven year old son and he had decided to enter into mortal combat with another lad and they turned up on the duelling field then I would want to see them well matched in arms. If my son had a gun and the other boy had some crappy old penknife then I would give the other boy a gun even if it meant that it made it more likely that my son might die. We the English might be a tad too martial and militaristic but surely the best of us long to see a fair fight regardless of who we support.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

That’s a really bad analogy.

Say the other lad had been goaded into the fight by another equally armed boy to your son, but they refused to fight their own battle, just kept goading the other kid to prod your son until he reacted.

Still wanna arm the other kid? Or would you get them round a table, with the coat holding prodder and talk things out like a fucking adult before anyones children died in a mess of blood?

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

All would have to be equal. It is purely hypothetical. I would always arm the other kid. Not because I desire his victory but because the obscenity of him being killed by superior arms would overwhelm our civilisation. It has nothing to do with adult thinking. When the blood starts to flow then all of this chatter counts for nothing. He either lives or he dies.

Nearhorburian
Nearhorburian
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

The idea that you should never exploit superior technology in warfare is absurd.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

that’s the thing with bad analogies, you get to paint any picture you want to make an irrelavant point to support your absurdly poor argument.

Jabby Mcstiff
Jabby Mcstiff
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

The outcome for us in the West is deeply negative whatever happens. Just wait and see and I’m not talking about years in the future just wait and see how things are in four weeks time. If you are able to do it then forge alliances with like-minded people even if it is just an old lady at the library. Have confidence but not false confidence.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

The outcome for us in the West is deeply negative whatever happens

That was baked in the pie before the war.

ChristineJ58
ChristineJ58
4 years ago
Reply to  Jabby Mcstiff

A few hours ago I posted a reply to a comment of yours re. the truth of reincarnation on a DS article of a few days ago (“EX WHO scientist claims Omicron Ba2 variant is as infectious as measles…”…).

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