I would like to thank Ian for his response to my post about the morality of supplying arms to Ukraine. However, I find it odd that he describes my post as “wrong on every level”, since its purpose was to express reservations/raise doubts about the policy of arming Ukraine, rather than to argue forcefully against doing so.
I said it is “by no means clear” that supplying arms is the right thing to do; I did not say that supplying arms is definitely the wrong thing to do. Moreover, I said: “it’s entirely possible that, thanks to all the arms we’ve sent, the Ukrainians will either defeat the Russians, or will hold out long enough to bargain for a good settlement”.
Does Ian believe that it’s “wrong on every level” to express reservations/raise doubts about pouring billions of dollars worth of weapons into foreign country? Does he disagree with my conclusion that Western leaders should at least be considering the possibility that arming Ukraine could do more harm than good?
The only policy of which I expressed strong disapproval, and of which I continue to disapprove strongly, was that of turning Ukraine into ‘another Afghanistan’. I will now address some of Ian’s specific points.
He suggests that my main argument was that “by providing weaponry, the West might prolong a war, and thus prolong hardship”. This isn’t quite right. My main argument was that by providing weaponry, the West might prolong a war to such an extent that the average Ukrainian would be worse off than if those arms hadn’t been provided.
To support this argument, I drew an analogy with the Syrian Civil War, suggesting that ordinary Syrians might be better off today if the US had not armed rebel groups. Ian may disagree with this suggestion, or may believe the Syrian Civil War is not a good analogy, but it’s important to clarify exactly what I said.
Ian claims my argument could be applied to any conflict where one side is “able to inflict sufficient harm on the populace of its enemy”, but that isn’t true. I considered the possible consequences of supplying arms, and claimed that “a very bloody conflict that drags on for ten years” would be worse than Russian annexation of half the country.
He may disagree with this claim. But it doesn’t mean that what I was saying is: whenever one side can inflict a lot of harm on the other, you should just let that side win.
Suppose, for the sake of argument, that a reasonable worst-case scenario is Russia killing every last Ukrainian. In that case, the argument for supplying arms would be overwhelming, as no outcome could be worse for ordinary Ukrainians than this. Hence I was not signing up to any sort of “aggressors’ charter”.
Ian then claims that, under my line of argument, freedom becomes “something like a subjective value judgement” rather than “an absolute moral right”. Here he’s correct – this is what I was arguing. (By “freedom”, I think he means ‘the freedom not to live under foreign occupation’.)
There are two reasons why I believe this. First, as I’ve already tried to make clear, some things are worse than living under foreign occupation, such as living in a perpetual warzone. Personally, I would prefer to live under Russian rule than in somewhere like Syria circa 2014. He may have a different preference. But clearly people do disagree.
Second, if you take the view that freedom is “an absolute moral right”, then the West should be intervening in every conflict around the world where people believe they’re living under foreign occupation.
Many Palestinians believe this. Should we supply arms to the Palestinians? Many Yemenis believe this. Should we supply arms to the Yemenis? Many Iraqis believed it in 2003. Should we have supplied arms to the Iraqis, rather than joining the American-led invasion of that country?
I would add that the situation in Ukraine is more complicated than he suggests. Yes, outside Crimea and the Donbass, the majority of Ukrainians (probably the vast majority) oppose Russian annexation. However, this does not mean there’s a simple choice between freedom on the one hand and tyranny on the other.
For example, many ethnically Russian Ukrainians strongly oppose the post-Maidan government’s decisions to ban Russian media, arrest opposition leaders, and abolish minority language rights. To be clear: I’m not saying these things justify Putin’s invasion. But they’re clearly violations of people’s freedom.
Toward the end of his article, Ian implies that I was trying to ‘second-guess’ the preferences of the Ukrainian people. And that’s true. But by taking the opposing position, he’s doing the exact same thing. Neither of us has any data, and at this point in the conflict reliable data would be very difficult to gather.
What’s more, I didn’t dispute that there are many Ukrainians who want to fight. I merely asked whether they will be “just as keen to fight if the war drags on for months or even years”.
By way of conclusion, let me reiterate that supplying arms to Ukraine may work, but we shouldn’t just assume it’s the right policy. From where I stand, the best thing the West can do is pressure both sides to negotiate, in the hope of a reaching some kind of settlement – like the one John Mearsheimer suggested in 2014.
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“. . . From where I stand, the best thing the West can do is pressure both sides to negotiate, in the hope of reaching some kind of settlement – like the one John Mearsheimer suggested in 2014.”
Good points Noah, but I think you’re misguided if you think the west wants a resolution to this conflict anytime soon. In my view, they don’t. For them, it’s a lovely war that solves a lot of problems . . .
Putin is the perfect bogeyman; everything can be blamed on him. Meanwhile, Biden, Macron and Johnson et al go from strength to strength, pretending they give a damn about ordinary Ukrainians. They care no more about them than they do about the ordinary people of Yemen. But there’s no political capital to be made out of that conflict, not least because they are now going to have to cozy up to the Saudi’s (who’ve been bombing Yemen relentlessly for years) for their precious oil. Make no mistake, it’s a lovely war for our so-called leaders, every last one of whom is a monstrous hypocrite without a single moral backbone or compass between them.
I think this is broadly correct.
I would add to this that the Neo Cons in the US have actively sought conflict with Russia.
The U.K. has not had a truly independent foreign policy since Suez in 1956 (ie it will not stand against the US in anything meaningful) and acts like a puppet. However much Johnson may pretend he is Churchill.
Agreed the poshboy British regime did for a short period of time in 1956 act independently of the USA in Suez before they were given some short sharp orders and backed down. Perhaps in the country houses they were thinking back to before the poshboy pullout from Greece, Turkey, Egypt, Palestine, and India in 1948.
But their atomic physicists had already sold out to the USA during WW2. To this day those who were responsible have never been prosecuted.
Sadly you are correct, but you forgot Harold Wilson refusing to take the UK into Vietnam
I don’t actually believe that “the West” wanted the invasion of Ukraine – too much at stake. I suppose they expected Putin to back down, but they entered into the farce with spirit and it helped to distract from the Covid saga unravelling.
Was the Kiev summit a fake?
http://johnhelmer.net/the-zelensky-summit-meeting-in-kiev-on-march-15-with-polish-czech-and-slovenian-prime-ministers-was-a-fake-devised-in-warsaw-the-meeting-was-at-przemysl-poland-zelensky-also/
Veteran war correspondent Lara Logan calls out the BS on America’s Voice
Lara Logan on America’s Voice (5 parts)
https://twitter.com/LFCNewsMedia/status/1504527538240040963
Almost everything we see is so transparently stupid and everyone is supposed to have lost their critical faculties.
Russia has the same covid crisis. So does everybody, in one version or another.
Covid has nothing to do with the war.
There is no Covid crisis.
And there never has been.
That’s more like it.. get back to stupid sceptic basics. Deny the undeniable.
I’ve told you before about trolling late at night.
Now get back to bed or you’ll be in trouble with mummy.
Belarus didn’t, their President rejected the narrative
https://twitter.com/Nemo70488915/status/1487208295307923456
And they had one of the lowest death rates in Europe as a result
https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3543
It is a good war for Boris, although he didn’t start it.
It’s a disastrous war for the EU. It shatters their energy policy, their disarmament policy, their economic policy, and puts another enormous strain on their ability to absorb refugees – the single biggest cause of tension between EU states.
The war will end when Putin has had enough, and not before.
The war didn’t do any of that, politicians decided to do that.
Not many people thought Putin would actually do this. The most you can blame politicians for is their failure to realise that.
I’m not sure why I need to blame everyone else for failing to guess what one dictator might or might not decide in the privacy of his own head.
You don’t get to decide who I can blame for what. That’s in your own head, just like most of your “facts” a figment of your imaginarion.
No..no..NATO made Putin invade. Almost everyone here says so and seems to wish him a speedy victory.
Yep, I actually got my Putin tattoo earlier today.
It will be a great influence on energy policy. It was always madness to build a reliance on Russian hydrocarbons.
That’s indeed been the 3rd main purpose of this war, instigated by the US and UK MICIMATT and OGM complex:
Separating EUrope and in particular Germany from Russia again as per Brzeszinski&co.
The ‘funny’ things are that a) the EUropeans and Germans still don’t get that and that b) the instigating geo-strategists in the UK and USA couldn’t even fathom the much worse and most likely consequence of this: the Russia/Cina&co hookup and de-dollarization.
With geo-strategists like this, who needs enemies?!
Western intelligence turned out to be very accurate. They said Putin would invade, they were slagged for saying it, but they were right. Considering Putin barely even talks to his own advisors any more, that’s impressive.
The purpose of those early warnings was to discourage Putin from actually going ahead. To some extent they succeeded. Putin probably was planning a false flag attack, but that became unworkable after so many warnings.
The war is against the interests of the overwhelming majority of businesses and governments. For every business that profits, there are 1,000 that lose.
Russia and China have been moving closer together for years. Whether this incident pushing them together or apart in the long term remains to be seen. Either way, it’s a problem that couldn’t be avoided. There’s never any action you can take that doesn’t have downsides.
10 years ago it looked like democracy would become the preferred form of government round the world. Not now.
I go along with the old saying, democracy is the worst form of government apart from all the other forms of government.
IMO the criticism of the West in this website has totally lost sight of how much worse it is in Russia. They complain about undue influence on media, while missing the fact that people who disagree with Putin are literally dead or in jail.
The West certainly do not seem to want this war to end; you only have to compare the aggressive, taunting (bordering on child-like) rhetoric coming for the US and UK against the seemingly measured statements made by the Russians. It looks pretty clear who the adults in the room are. I still believe, however, the reason for this is the opportunity to usher in deep social and economic reform. I do not believe the war directly in the back of Covid was a coincidence.
Measured statements by Russia..really.
“There is no invasion”. For instance.
Or perhaps you like their actions, with bombs on hospitals and apartment blocks.
What planet are you from?
We’re all Russian agents.
Surely it’s obvious.
I find it incredibly sad on this topic to see so many supported posts below the line at the Daily Sceptic in some way supportive or at least understanding and tolerant of Russian aggression and invasion into Ukrainian territory. The opinions and churlish postings about a situation where Ukraine, even with the canoodling towards NATO and the EU/West, offered no meaningful threat to Russia, feels misplaced and unbalanced.
My long-held and meaningful opposition to the lunacy of the lockdown authoritarianism was based on the primacy of the individual against the state. I feel the same way about the plight of Ukrainians facing incoming missiles and death and disruption to their lives. Whatever the wrongs of neo-nazi elements, western influence, alleged or actual wrong-doing in Russian-speaking areas of Ukraine, nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the invasion and targeting of civilians in Kyiv and other Ukrainian cities and areas.
I have read with interest many of the UN documents about the Ukrainian and Russian conflict, Minsk agreements and the recent statements and contributions from diplomatic representatives of Russia, along with the US, Ireland, UK, Norway, India, Brazil and others, immediately before the invasion took place. These are not documents that the Russian federation come out of looking like honest actors committed to diplomacy and resolution of conflict by peaceful means, particularly with the benefit of hindsight afforded by Russia taking military action. Whilst none of that excuses any Ukrainian failures not to adhere to and help implement the Minsk agreement to find a peaceful resolution to the situation in their east, it definitely doesn’t warrant the appeasement style positioning I’ve experienced on DS.
I fully respect the right of all those on here to express whatever opinion they have about the situation. At the same time, many folks, some who comment, most who do not, will make up their minds about the agendas and intellectual capacity of those that express any kind of support or understanding of the Russian aggression.
You’re determined to sweep all Russian grievances under the carpet. If Russia had raised these grievances on Feb 17th 2022 then decided to intervene militarily on Feb 24th 2022, you might have had a fair argument. However, they’ve been highlighting them for eight years and the chances of them ever being addressed decreased even further after the “election” of Biden.
You’ve overlooked the failure of the West to take any responsibility for the situation. The likes of Mearsheimer and Kissinger (are these Putin apologists as well?) were saying years ago that the failure to deal with Russia’s grievances was going to lead to serious consequences for Ukraine. And here we are. So the question is – why did the West pursue a provocative strategy? Why was Ukraine happy to go along with this?
I assume most Ukrainian citizens want to live in peace and prosperity. I’m pretty sure had they been given a choice to either a) actively fulfil the terms of the Minsk agreements and remain neutralized, or b) ignore the terms of the Minsk agreements and continue their quest to join NATO, they would overwhelmingly support a). They’ve been failed by their government and used as pawns by the West.
By the way, Russia is not targeting civilians. Do I really need to give an explanation for how utterly absurd this assertion is?
“By the way, Russia is not targeting civilians. Do I really need to give an explanation for how utterly absurd this assertion is?”
You stupid appeasing fool – is it that the Russian Armed forces maps are not up to date, have not get the most recent Ukrainian residential developments charted, or their munitions do not have accurate targeting capabilities, or all of the aforementioned and more weasel excuses – maybe the Russian conscripts cannot/do not know how to use their weapons and systems – all feasible and possible?
Perhaps we in the west have not been shown the leaflets dropped by the Russians telling Ukrainians that “your district is next, leave now”; or maybe the Ukrainians have all their military infrastructure in the basements of Hospital Maternity wards and Theatres – that’s entirely possible given the craven and corrupt regime of the incumbent Ukrainian President….
Are you just ranting or do you actually have a point to make?
Do you honestly believe that after almost a month of “targeting civilians”, the MSM figure of around 500 casualties is all Russia could muster despite civilians being sitting ducks? Ludicrous.
We also have an estimated three million Ukrainians that have now left the country. Presumably they all sneaked out when the nasty Russians were sleeping?
And yes, there are reports that the Ukrainian Nazis are staging events, using civilians as human shields, shooting those wanting to leave and using civilians buildings for their own military purposes.
Whether they’re all true or not…who knows? But our MSM won’t report it in the current climate. That would presumably make them appeasers in your opinion if they did.
No, and yes, and just in case you don’t get the point – “you stupid appeasing fool”
Bravo.
You were probably one of those muppets throwing that kind of insult around against those of us who opposed the Iraq War as well.
How did that turn out? Ah yes, hundreds of thousands of dead civilians.
But let’s see if you can actually think for yourself: Saudi Arabia – we buy oil off them despite their brutal autocracy and executions, and we sell arms to them, some of which are used to kill and maim citizens in Yemen.
Do you support this policy towards SA or not ?
The 2014 – 2022 death toll is c.13,000. Mostly Donbas civilians. The UAF was more and more active up to 24/02/2022.
Stephen McIntyre is a good source :
Your reasons for why the western leaders want war aren’t very good.
War is for profit.
Nobody powerful gives a damn about Mophead’s image. He could drop down dead later today and it wouldn’t matter. Someone might have to make a phone call to someone else to agree a successor in the event that one hadn’t already been chosen – that’s all.
“What would you say this war is about?”
The answer is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VAZZTjj6yM#t=54s
“Your reasons for why the western leaders want war aren’t very good. . .”
Star,
I provided no less than 10 bulleted points as to how and why the west profits from this war. You say they “aren’t very good”, without saying why (about any one of them). I welcome constructive criticism – that’s how we inform and learn from one another. However, your post tells me nothing useful. Ironically, you then link to a video entitled ‘Profits’, a topic which all 10 points address and point #7 deals with specifically apropos financial gain. So, contrary to your unsubstantiated assertion, I think my reasons as to why western leaders want and profit from the war are pretty much spot on.
The MSM have been their normal pitiful salves, on one hand its “oh isn’t what russia doing bad” on the other its “well, now look at these pictures of bombs blowing up”
Bang on.
An American blogger I follow wrote “Soon Ukraine will be as well armed as the Taliban”, or words to that effect. See: wry humour isn’t dead.
They’ve cancelled Gargarin now – it was never that silly even at the height of the Cold War. We are supposed to admire the painfully shallow Zelensky. I have always hated Russian autocracy but we live in the metaverse and Zelensky is what you get.
They need to stir up our anger and indignation towards “the enemy” as rulers always do when they decide to have a war.
Never has it been clearer to me that the only war I’m involved in is the perpetual war our rulers have with ordinary people to control us and use us for their benefit and purposes.
Indeed.
Likewise. I find allies accordingly. I don’t care what people call themselves, or what disagreements I might have with them on other matters.
This is the fight that matters.
Yes yes yes yes yes.
Indeed. Putin has been playing that game for years. Lots of people actually believe that Ukraine is run by a bunch of Nazis.
Are you denying there are Nazi militia in the Ukraine and the UK and US are not arming them?
Russia has a worse far right problem than Ukraine.
This war has absolutely nothing to do with Nazism, That’s just the sucker excuse Putin used for his invasion.
I have no idea why so many people on this site keep believing him, when he makes so many outright, obvious lies (eg ‘there is no war’).
Russia doesn’t have a Nazi battalion, or have them runnnig the national Police, or have them disobeying orders from the President to stop shelling their own citizens.
Ukraine does, instead of disbanding them when they refused presidential orders, he pinned hero medals on them instead, maybe it was the only way he could stay alive, which show hows much power the Nazis have in Ukraine.
I can’t see any meaningful difference between the worst of Ukraines army and the worst of Russia’s army. There’s nothing the Azov Battalion have done that’s worse than some Russian troops.
The whole Nazi thing is and always was a distraction, a piece of bullshit designed to mobilise Russian public opinion against their own so called brothers and sisters.
then you’re under researched, as usual.
Which Nazis in Russia disobeyed a presidential order from Putin?
I prefer to get my information from someone other than Vladimir Putin. Because this whole Azov Battalion thing – that’s him.
Now you’re just being silly.
You must tell us your main sources, it’s good to be better informed and you could help us with that.
No surprise to see you didn’t answer the question.
“Russia has a worse far right problem than Ukraine.”
Evidence?
“That’s just the sucker excuse Putin used for his invasion.”
Nothing to do with NATO then?
“when he makes so many outright, obvious lies “
You mean, like our politicians and media?
Far right parties have won bigger vote share in Russia than Ukraine over the years. No party stands in Russia unless Putin permits it.
Putin draws support from far right parties across Europe (although some of them are trying to pretend otherwise just now).
Putin has given quite a number of reasons for invasion including: NATO, Nazism, Russian language persecution, chemical weapons, bio weapons, nuclear weapons, historical territory.
Take your pick.
Our media can be biased, incorrect, incompetent and yes, it sometimes lies.
The good news is, you know in advance what the bias is (eg Telegraph is Tory).
There are some checks on reality (eg libel laws).
There is variety.
They are allowed to criticise the government, and do.
Whereas, Russian media…is just Putin.
The far right problem in the Ukraine – more accurately a Nazi problem – is that they have an unhealthy influence on the country’s direction.
Even on your own terms this is not the case in Russia.
“Take your pick.”
Indeed, Russia has openly been raising these varying issues for many years.
“Our media can be biased, incorrect, incompetent and yes, it sometimes lies.”
We’re in a different paradigm now – the western media are just propaganda tools. You only have to look at the last two years with its government-sponsored Covid lies.
“They are allowed to criticise the government, and do. Whereas, Russian media…is just Putin.”
Putin ought to learn something from the West then – just create controlled opposition and you get to call yourselves free and democratic. It’s pure illusion.
It barely bothers anymore anyway. Show me any MSM source that has been balanced and informative on either Covid, vaccines or Ukraine?
I joined this forum because I was interested to see alternative views on covid. And that was worth it – some of it has been genuinely interesting.
What’s disappointing is that any interesting article is diluted to the point of extinction by the kind of wild conspiracy theory that has cursed us ever since 9/11.
For all the flaws of western media, they pale in comparison to the total state control that Putin has over Russian media.
Truly, we’ve had too much freedom in this country, we’ve forgotten what proper hardcore persecution looks like.
I know why they believe him.
If western media or governments say something, they are compelled to believe the other side.
It happens over and over again.
They think they are smart and enlightened, but it really is the opposite.
Talking of smart and enlightened…how are the GCSEs going?
But the Azovs do have a role and are supported by the government
So what? In Syria, Putin supported chemical weapons.
Once you reach basement level, they’re all as bad as each other.
So what? In Syria, Putin supported chemical weapons.
That’s what Russians and Syrians always do when they’re winning. Still it’s strange though, this uncontrollable urge to snatch PR defeat from the jaws of military victory.
Assad was winning, but couldn’t actually win. Once you’ve bombed the crap out of an urban battlefield the ruins make a fantastic fortress. Same as Stalingrad.
I note he still hasn’t managed to finish off Idlib, all these years later.
you really believe everything in the MSM don’t you, That syria trope has been proved false.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/as-mainstream-journalists-acknowledge-douma-attacks-were-staged-the-humanitarian-syria-regime-change-network-tries-to-save-a-sinking-ship/255223/
I always take other points of view, that’s why I’m on this website. And I read all sides about Syrian chemical weapons, even the fringe stuff.
What Mint Press say – it’s b******s.
Vanessa Beeley lived there, shes done a ton of interviews locally, been working on it for years, that’s how it got into the mainstream
.
you can’t just armwave it away because it causes you cognitive dissonence, that’s why you have zero credibility around here, and most people have written you off as a troll.
Russia has pushed 2 lines: one, that the rebels attacked their own people with chemical weapons and two, that there was no chemical attack. I guess that covers all bases.
It’s a characteristic of Russian propaganda to give multiple explanations for the same event, even if they totally contradict each other (at least 6 for MH17 for example).
It’s a characteristic of conspiracy sites to believe them all.
Beeley has a long standing attraction to Assad which is hard to understand.
Lots of people actually believe that Ukraine is run by a bunch of Nazis.
Yes, very strange, how could they possibly get things so wrong.
In Russia, people do have an excuse. iI’s all they get to see.
In the UK…not so much.
We’ll nearly all the creatures on here certainly do. Once they have learned a phrase, they just can’t stop.
I think the Samaritans are still open.
Or is it ChildLine you need?
If freedom is a right, then why aren’t we even considering the referenda that Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk have held as overwhelmingly ethnic Russian provinces to separate from Ukraine?
Is there a comparison with Brexit here? What if the EU had ignored our referendum and some government sponsored Nazis started shelling us from Brussels back in 2016? Do you think we might have done something about it by now? If 15000 Brits had been killed? If the US had backed us and invaded Brussels to stop them from shelling and impose some terms, would the US be as morally wrong as Putin is claimed to be?
In reality what would have happened is we would have rolled over and just given them our territory, as we did in Northern Ireland. But that shouldn’t give us any grounds to object to another country that wants to unite with its people.
These referenda were not exactly reliable, were they?
I guess it depends on who you ask and what you compare it to. Do you think our elections or the US elections are particularly reliable?
Those referenda were secured by considerable margins. I would also suggest there was a strong basis for them. These are ethnic Russians being shelled by Nazis in a country they didn’t choose to be a part of in the first place and was originally a part of Russia.
A more pertinent question would be why aren’t we asking for them to be conducted again under some kind of international supervision? Why are we just declaring them to be illegal in the first place and turning a blind eye while the Nazi shelling and killing of thousands continues?
You tell me why? The result of last US Presidential Election wasn’t reliable either was it Mr. Tree?
I have no idea what direction you are coming from with this.
Obviously the last is election was reliable. Even trump doesn’t really believe it was stolen and hasn’t even bothered to make up any evidence to support what he tells his crackpot base.
Being crackpots, they just believe.
Looked pretty legit in the “Roses Have Thorns series” Huge turnout, everyone seemed happy to be doing something they thought positive. 97% in favor of independance. International monitors were invited, from multiple countries, but none of them showed up, wonder why. This is why they went to so much trouble to film everything.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ930lCvSK8
But then, you’re not known for your in depth reasearch and unbiased views with your driveby trolling so I’m really wasting my time with you again.
Defo they weren’t
Yes, they were reliable – in Donetsk, Luhansk, and the Crimea.
Why didn’t Putin allow a free vote for Chechnya, instead of flattening it?
Come to think of it, why doesn’t Putin allow a free vote to Russians in the next election?
There is something truly bizarre in complaining about Ukraine compared to Russia, for lack of democracy.
Whilst you have a point I’m not talking about Chechnya or Russia and neither is anyone else at the moment.
How many US puppet regimes can truly say they have a say in their democratic process? Democracy is something we enjoy at home (barely) but despite all the empty rhetoric we rarely cultivate it abroad.
Can you focus on the issue on the table? What’s wrong with the referenda and why shouldn’t they expect to be respected by the international community if democracy is our thing?
Russia does not believe in the use of referenda to decide independence issues – and for that matter neither does any other country except the UK and Canada.
Putin does not even believe in referenda to decide his own election.
Putin seized Crimea because it had the only Russian warm water port in the western hemisphere. he would have done that whatever the sympathies of the local population.
Now he’s trying to grab the entire coastline to link up with Crimea, even though he has no support at all.
But he does have support, that’s what I’ve repeatedly contended and you haven’t responded to the merits of those democratic decisions.
As you say the West believes in democracy and it’s what we’re supposedly supporting the Ukrainians in defending. But there’s nothing democratic in ignoring those referenda and Putin’s only taking back what was and is Russian.
As a matter of fact I would have sympathised with Putin if he had sought a legal means to transfer Crimea to Russia. But he didn’t, so we are where we are.
There are any number of territories around the world which, given a free vote, would secede from their present country. But very few countries ever allow secession referenda (currently just the UK and Canada AFAIK).
For example, no one is suggesting we attack Spain to make them give up Catalonia.
If Putin wants to embrace democracy, then he has a case.
Noah is presenting a calm, logical argument. That’s not an easy thing to do in a propaganda-rich environment.
Propaganda relies on emotive words and images, and it’s extremely effective against most of the population, regardless of their intelligence.
People are no longer capable of understanding that they’re being unfair, irrational, or distorting the words of others. They simply know what they must do: defend the defenceless, attack the wicked.
Asking them to consider issues of freedom/unfreedom/evil/virtue is useless, I’m afraid. They are not in the mood.
The mistake in my view is to think this war has anything to do with us, ordinary people.
This war, like most of them, is a squabble between oligarchs and power brokers into which ordinary people get dragged in.
Ordinary Ukrainians didn’t want any of this. As I’m sure neither did the Russian boys being sent into Ukraine to shoot up Ukrainians.
Here in Britain and the rest of the west we will suffer the consequences to a lesser degree in the form of shortages, higher prices and other inconveniences.
And because we are going to be affected, the people ruling over us do so much to provoke indignation towards the Russians for their “aggression” and outrage on behalf of Ukrainians for their plight. That way, they direct any anger from the negative effects we might feel away from them and towards Russians. And our relatively mild suffering gains some sense of purpose.
I’m not falling for the manipulation. They can send weapons to the Ukrainians if they want, or not. Not my problem. Those who created this problem can sort it out. I’m not participating in their game.
They have to be called out.
Well yes. Except that as always you and I as taxpayers will fund the government’s warmongering activities and pay for the fallout.
With you. Bozo can do one. Fecking murderous ba#tard that he is.
A lot of ordinary people, Ukrainians and Russians, being killed because a few anti human twats believe they are entitled to rule the world. They can duck off too.
I have been avoiding corporate media propaganda for the past couple of weeks.
Today I was encouraged though: I flicked to a Telegraph article about the Biden-Xi meeting. The article was broadly in line with the narrative.
But the comments clearly were not. I estimate two thirds were broadly sceptical and one third supportive. Not a representative sample by any means but I do wonder if people really buy in to what they are being force fed by our hypocritical politicians and media.
The Covid lies and propaganda highlighted that western MSM are prepared to support a bogus narrative even when it decimates the economy, health, education, liberty and human rights of its own people.
I think many people can clearly see that Putin – whatever one’s opinion of him – has done very little harm to them compared to our own woeful establishment.
What people? The ones under his bombs?
The OP was clearly referring to people in the UK.
No bombs falling from the skies here from what I can see.
We’re you so concerned when the Ukrainians were shelling the Dombas region killing 14,000? I suspect you never knew it was going on however it did and has been going on for several years.
The Donbass war would never have started but for Putin and has been sustained only because of Putin.
Nonsense. The Donbass civil war would never had started if the US haddn’t caused the coup in the first place. The Maidan protests were a direct result of people not recognisnig the puppet governement installed by the US.
It’s all recored in it’s full gory detail
https://www.watchdogmediainstitute.com/p/blog-page.html
All previous Ukrainian governments were Russian proxies. Following Maidan, Yanukovytch even ran to Russia.
Ukraine is/was Russia’s backyard and the idea that the the US could pull off a revolution here without them noticing is an insult to the Russian intelligence service.
LOL You must have kept your fingers in your ears and hands over your eyes while watching that documentry series.
who said “Fuck the EU” while dictating who would be in the new government again?
Have another listen to the tape. They didn’t control anything.
Putin’s cronies were also having a conversation about who they wanted. But we don’t have a tape of that.
Funny how the people she mentioned happened to all get the spots she desired then isn’t it
Look, the tape clearly shows that the US/EU did not engineer the revolution. They were reacting to it, and so was Russia. Both of them were caught by surprise.
If Nuland could simply appoint who she wanted, that conversation would never have taken place.
She talked about what was achievable, not just what she wanted.
Putin intervened because he lost his proxy government, like the one he has in Belarus.
Look, you’re wrong, again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZiJRnaom_E
What in this video do you think adds to your argument?
I already said, the Nuland tape shows someone reacting to events (ie a revolution) but not controlling them.
The US had preferences for a president. So did Russia. Surprise surprise, it wasn’t the same person. But as this was on Ukrainian territory, Russia had a virtual monopoly of intelligence info.
This Fingal herbert is just another troll talking nonsense.
Yes, rational; leek; tree; Fingal, the four horsemen of 77th mounted brigade.
NB The name Fingal is a boy’s name of Irish origin meaning “fair stranger” referring to the Viking invaders of Ireland. Odd he would name himself after an invader.
As a former long-term subscriber to the Telegraph, I too saw the steady change in attitude of its (at least) online readership to trust the word of the paper less and less since the takeover by the Barclay Bros and Chris Evans became Editor.
This process accelerated considerably after Donald Trump was elected president of the US in 2016 where the paper got very beligerant against him (and pro anyone who was against him, even the Democratic Party [now there’s a contradiction-in-terms, given their presidential candidate selection process]) and increasingly woke and pro-Establishment (including Big Tech, noting it was then [2017] that they started and got $3.2M from the Gates Foundation for their ‘Global Health Security’ section) in outlook.
This then accelerated again once the ‘Pandemic’ began, including a significant amount of censorship of reader comments, regulalrly deleting perfectly reasonable one or (often) entire comments sections where the overwhelming sentiment was against the author/paper and scathing and on point in their crticism.
One time, their (IMHO) woke luvvie film ‘critic’ actually (in my view) threw a hissy fit when I and others point out the several flaws in his glowing review of a film (and of the previous one in the series) that he got the moderators to delet all comments and actually ‘penned’ a rant article in response.
Other staffers also got the moderators to delete comments sections, some (especially the feminists like Joan Smith) now get preferential treatment with no comments allowed under their left wing articles. Others ranted against readers in the comments sections (making themselves look complete fools) when people pointed out errors.
The era of having a go at your clients was now in full swing.
To me, this was enough to justify not renewing my annual subscription in 2020. I wasn’t alone. the sad thing was, despite all the above, many readers who also did/had subbed to The Times or other supposedly ‘conservative’ news outlets said that those were even worse.
Very few decent, actual conservative journos are left at the Telegraph, or anywhere else for that matter amongst the legacy MSM.
I can’t see how most Ukrainians have anything to gain by prolonging this war, particularly when there appears to be a reasonable peace deal on the table. I also fail to see how prolonging the war serves the best interests of most people in the UK, given the substantial economic damage it is causing. However, it appears the establishment here wants the bloodshed and destruction to continue, and its rhetoric is getting ever more dangerous. John Major and Gordon Brown now want Putin to face a Nuremberg-style trial. Well, if Putin is backed into a corner, he might just decide to take everybody down with him. Putin might yet prevail, though. A few weeks ago, the Sunday Times published the opinion of one “expert” who said Putin would be finished if he didn’t complete the campaign in 10 days. So, this “expert” proved to be as reliable as Neil Ferguson. In the meantime, it is reported that Zelensky is calling for urgent talks – could he possibly be starting to get the wind up?
Brown needs to tread very carefully about who should face a Nuremberg-style trial. Putin has far more rational reasons for the action in Ukraine compared to the UK’s war crimes in Iraq.
There is no peace deal on the table, just a surrender deal. Hitler’s offer to us in 1940 was a lot more generous.
Then you’re uninformed as usual
Ukraine and Russia explore neutrality plan in peace talks
https://www.ft.com/content/7b341e46-d375-4817-be67-802b7fa77ef1
What? Ukraine gets to explore Russian neutrality?
Sure, there are talks, and I support that.
Neutrality is something Zelensky could offer. But as it stands, Putin is asking for a whole lot more than that.
I think he’ll look not just for recognition of Crimea and the Donbass, but also the Azov coastline.
Yep
Don’t know if anyone else has noticed this, but the BBC headlines don’t change nearly as often as they did with the last narrative. We can have the same one now for a whole day.
But if we help the smaller side in this dispute , we prolong the war, and cause many extra deaths.
Precisely. Our interference will bring nothing but misery to the Ukrainians. Without knowing the why’s and wherefores the West has once again stuck its size 12s where it shouldn’t.
Perhaps there are concerns beyond practicalities and consequences. If I had an eleven year old son and he had decided to enter into mortal combat with another lad and they turned up on the duelling field then I would want to see them well matched in arms. If my son had a gun and the other boy had some crappy old penknife then I would give the other boy a gun even if it meant that it made it more likely that my son might die. We the English might be a tad too martial and militaristic but surely the best of us long to see a fair fight regardless of who we support.
That’s a really bad analogy.
Say the other lad had been goaded into the fight by another equally armed boy to your son, but they refused to fight their own battle, just kept goading the other kid to prod your son until he reacted.
Still wanna arm the other kid? Or would you get them round a table, with the coat holding prodder and talk things out like a fucking adult before anyones children died in a mess of blood?
All would have to be equal. It is purely hypothetical. I would always arm the other kid. Not because I desire his victory but because the obscenity of him being killed by superior arms would overwhelm our civilisation. It has nothing to do with adult thinking. When the blood starts to flow then all of this chatter counts for nothing. He either lives or he dies.
The idea that you should never exploit superior technology in warfare is absurd.
that’s the thing with bad analogies, you get to paint any picture you want to make an irrelavant point to support your absurdly poor argument.
The outcome for us in the West is deeply negative whatever happens. Just wait and see and I’m not talking about years in the future just wait and see how things are in four weeks time. If you are able to do it then forge alliances with like-minded people even if it is just an old lady at the library. Have confidence but not false confidence.
That was baked in the pie before the war.
A few hours ago I posted a reply to a comment of yours re. the truth of reincarnation on a DS article of a few days ago (“EX WHO scientist claims Omicron Ba2 variant is as infectious as measles…”…).
Summary from today’s news:
[I hope this is true, but I couldn’t find what the Ukrainian proposals actually are. Great reporting standards, eh, MSM news desks?]
[This is called a “Let’s You and Him Fight” policy. Too bad if you’re in the Ukraine. How the hell will peace come about unless the Moscow and Kiev governments talk to each other and reach an agreement? Truss makes it crystal clear that her order-givers, which is to say the commanding interests in the weapons companies, the White House, and the CIA, want the war to continue. They are sh*tting on the main hope for a quick peace, and the MSM are helping them. A state whose foreign minister says what Truss says is warmongering for sure. And the “irony” is that the very same MSM tells us that Zelensky’s government itself has made peace proposals and it wants peace talks. We are supposed to read those words and not understand them.]
[This is called “Being a F***ing Moron who Talks Sh*t”. It doesn’t require any more commentary than that. Johnson knows about ancient Greece and Rome, but could he even find Russia on a map?]
Putin says Ukraine is part of Russia and has always been part of Russia
Therefore by his own logic is Putin attacking and killing his own people?
He is, but according to him it’s the Ukrainian government that’s killing all its own people.
How they manage to hold off the entire Russian army at the same time is not explained.
Holding off = losing territory 4x as fast as they lost it to Germany during operation Barbarossa. Russia seem to be “losing” spectacularly well.
In Barbarossa, the Soviets lost 10x as many aircraft as the entire Ukrainian Air Force – on the first day.
I totally expected Putin’s invasion to roll over Ukraine about as fast as his tanks could travel. Unfortunately they had neglected to carry enough petrol.
“Let’s imagine that the Russian plan is to conquer all of Ukraine.
Then, when they fail to meet the the objectives we’ve invented, we can say they’ve failed.”
Well, if you want to believe Putin when he says this war is going to plan, that’s up to you.
Kyiv looks out of reach, and maybe even Kharkiv. However Putin is going to take Mariopul soon, which will probably be a cause for wild celebration on this website. That will give him a complete south coast connection to Crimea, which is something he could ‘sell’ to his public.
Unfortunately, if he refuses to hand back that same coastal strip in negotiations, then the war can’t end.
Long wars are won by the countries with the deepest pockets. I can’t think another case where one side has been so totally outclassed economically, as Putin is by the west.
It doesn’t matter to the UK which bits are ruled from Moscow and which from Kiev.
Deaths would be minimised by a swift Russian victory.
That’s essentially it.
Oh, and people who have recently started typing Kyiv rather than Kiev are utter twats.
Why?
Are you saying the Ukranian government are utter tawts now?
https://www.kmu.gov.ua/en/mediagallery/zayavi-premyer-ministriv-ukrayini-litvi-ta-polshchi-pislya-zustrichi-u-kiyevi
We speak English.
The English name for the city is Kiev.
Just like the English names are Peking, Bombay, Cologne and Florence.
Language evolves, it was the Ukranian government that decided to change it in 1995, you think people who don’t respect that decision are “utter twats” “Because we speak English” doesn’t quite work in any logical sense.
http://www.uazone.net/Kiev_Kyiv.html
The Ukrainian government has zero say on the English language.
Niether do you.
Well, I’m able to point out that, until a few weeks ago, I’d never seen a single English speaker spell it Kyiv.
Which supports my argument that those now spelling it that way are twats.
All you’re doing is proving you don’t keep up, along with those you read.
The Oxford English dictionary used “Kyiv” in 2018
Did it use it as an alternative spelling or the only permissible spelling?
And can you supply any examples of ordinary English speakers spelling it Kyiv before the Russian invasion?
Blimey you’re at the level of stamping your feet now, you think the OED arn’t English speakers or something?
I’m done
“I’m done” = “I’ve lost”
I’ve established that you’re a dishonest idiot, so that will save me valuable minutes from now on.
Don’t be silly, if you walk away from a “Karen” ranting it doesn;t mean you’ve lost anything, it’s means you can’t be arsed engaging on a purile level.
Well there has been quite an educational phase in the last few weeks.
Nothing has happened that requires us to change our spelling.
Yawn.
Do you think the French should stop calling London Londres? Or the UK Royaume Uni?
And why aren’t the twats who say Mumbai calling India Bharat?
It turns out you may have had a point, you just failed to make it very well. I spoke to my Ukranian friend last night, he explained it was all part of the culture wars in Ukraine, designed to rip the Russian heritage from half the country, to divide people. So I asked him why he’d been using “Kyiv”, he said he just got in the habbit when writing in English, (he learnt English from joining a gaming community) it’s not a big deal.
The French pronounce Paris, Paree, we don’t.
Moskva, not Moscow. Please keep up.
You could get a job as Chamberlain’s speechwriter:
“How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far-away country between people of whom we know nothing!’
Don’t treat it as an abstraction or a war on foreign soil. Many have captured on video the movements into Poland and this is thousands of tanks. There is no pleasant resolution and the consequences will hit our shores in a couple of weeks.Hopefully you will develop networks of survival amongst your neighbours.You don’t have much hope beyond that.
Those holding the shares don’t want any real action and yet they are going to get it. Is this an injustice? It really isn’t. We the people sniff your lies. Trust me not a single one of you will get away on my watch.
Get your wife and children used to cold baths and similar austerities. This is the time where we all become feral. I welcome other feral types.
Try to get your own shithole in order before pronouncing judgement on anyone elses. Trust me you are not coming from a position of strength.
The Azov Regiment are allowed to have a Twitter account. Just sayin’.
Fortunately it seems someone has taken down their website ( http://azov.org.ua/ ) .
Indeed, Rons’s response to Carl’s previous article was largely a straw nonbinary, was haphazard, and seemingly knee-jerk. No disrespect to Rons, but he seemed more eager to make a response rather than think through a response.
I’ve been struck by the level of argumentation on the Russia-Ukraine issue in these comments sections. The level of knowledge and rationality has been astoundingly good*, and I don’t mean that in the sense that I am surprised; on the contrary, I am not at all surprised given the general quality on this forum. I’m just impressed.
I’m a relative neophyte in this area. In terms of history, I’m more up on Christian history, apostolic fathers, church fathers, much of British/English history. I’ve laregely limited my comments concerning this issue to trying to point out some errors in reasoning, almost all from the ‘anti-Russia/Putin’ side (which is telling if albeit on an anecdotal level). I knew a bit about this situation, but tellingly, I knew enough to know there is nuance and historical context, and that this whole Russia-Ukraine issue is not a black and white issue.
*I have followed up on the many comments/claims I have seen, and with few exceptions nearly every historical and factual claim relating to the Russua-Ukraine situation that I have seen in these comments sections has been accurate.
Look at the buyer remorse amongst those who lashed out emotionally. Our next ten years is going to be be much harder and much poorer. Which is fine for those who accepted the cost. Most will just lash out. The point is that all of this could have been seen beforehand. We allowed things to descend into this madness.
Simply put – it’s clearly a proxy war. ‘The West’ has refused to address Russia’s deep concerns and has embarked on a mission to ‘cancel’ and demonise Russia, using the Ukrainians to do their dirty work and pay the price. Zelensky is of course ‘a puppet’. Russia’s main crime is not Crimea, nor even this war – it is that it stands in the way of the woke revolution being used by globalist elites to seize control. Putin frequently makes speeches decrying the way in which western countries are destroying their own culture. How they hate him…
.Many sceptics are still swallowing all the lies being told…. but as with Covid, the truth will see daylight eventually. And yet, the prospect of a wider conflict being provoked by lunatics like Biden is frightening.
Yes, I believe this gets very much to the heart of the matter. A couple of years ago I had a heated conversation with an influential “progressive” Democrat who made no secret of the fact that he sought the creation of a woke globalist government. It was clear his aim would require the destruction of Russia as a cultural entity, which could perhaps be achieved through a process of cultural imperialism, or war. It is disappointing that so many conservatives have been totally duped by these “progressives”.
Mr. Putin and his colleagues have good reasons to mistrust NATO’s intentions, given the latter’s mendacity and history of ruthless disregard for the lives of its own constituent members’ citizens and those of sovereign nations which run afoul of international finance’s globalist intrigues.
This includes a year-by-year map of NATO’s eastward encroachment:
Enlargement of NATO – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO
“U.S. Secretary of State James Baker’s famous “not one inch eastward” assurance about NATO expansion in his meeting with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev on February 9, 1990, was part of a cascade of assurances about Soviet security given by Western leaders to Gorbachev and other Soviet officials throughout the process of German unification in 1990 and on into 1991, according to declassified U.S., Soviet, German, British and French documents posted today by the National Security Archive at George Washington University”
December 12, 2017
New Documents: US Promised Not to Expand NATO Eastward | MLToday
https://mltoday.com/new-document-us-promised-not-to-expand-nato-eastward/
https://archive.fo/y3M9h
https://archive.vn/y3M9h
17m27s
Jul 20, 2021
CaspianReport
Why Russia wants to restore the Soviet borders – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwzliJF0-SI
2 August 2019
INF nuclear treaty: US pulls out of Cold War-era pact with Russia – BBC News
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49198565
https://archive.fo/Iizkd
https://archive.ph/Iizkd
Baker’s comments relate only to the territory of the former GDR. The specific terms of that commitment were upheld. Remember, at this point both the Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact were still in existence!
It has been shown many times that no treaty exists which comes anywhere near what Russia claims. Putin himself wanted to join NATO after this date, which would have made the biggest nonsense of this claim you could possibly get.
A de facto piece of propaganda via omission which implicates Putin in the Baader-Meinhof Gang / Red Army Faction acts of terror in Western Europe without making any mention of NATO’s stay-behind armies aka Operation Gladio as being the actual cause of said terrorism (links below).
8:21
Mar 13, 2022
Mark Felton Productions
Vladimir Putin – KGB Agent – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2_EFJLWA6o
This Wikipedia link includes plenty of corroborative external links re NATO’s stay-behind armies and their involvement in false flag acts of domestic terror in Western Europe as a means of dissuading the public from voting for socialist politicians.
Operation Gladio – Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
“Ganser demonstrates, in forensic detail, that the terrorist attacks in European – especially Italian – cities, through the 1970-80’s and universally attributed to extreme left-wing groups – allegedly bent on installing communist governments – were overwhelmingly the carefully planned responsibility of extreme right-wing groups, financed, armed and protected by the most senior levels of Western Intelligence and NATO.”
Nato’s Secret Armies – Wikispooks
https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Nato%27s_Secret_Armies
56:53
ez4me2c2
NATO’s Secret Armies
https://ugetube.com/watch/nato-039-s-secret-armies_xTtEzAjnbsKmrWW.html
NATO’s Secret Armies: Operation GLADIO and Terrorism in Western Europe (Contemporary Security Studies): Ganser Daniele: 9780714685007:
https://www.amazon.com/NATOs-Secret-Armies-Operation-Contemporary/dp/0714685003
“Originally aired on BBC2 in 1992, ‘Operation Gladio’ reveals ‘Gladio’, the secret state-sponsored terror network operating in Europe. …”
2:25:28
hejjagheterpal
Operation Gladio – Full 1992 documentary BBC – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGHXjO8wHsA
11/03/2013
Gladio B: The Origins of NATO’s Secret Islamic Terrorist Proxies
https://wideshut.co.uk/gladio-b-the-origins-of-natos-secret-islamic-terrorist-proxies/
https://archive.ph/6QhS8
https://archive.vn/6QhS8
And lets not forget NATO’s destruction of Yugoslavia and later on that of Libya in order to defend Western fiat currencies.
November 11, 2011
Gadhafi’s Gold-money Plan Would Have Devastated Dollar – The New American
https://thenewamerican.com/gadhafi-s-gold-money-plan-would-have-devastated-dollar/
https://archive.fo/BRbTY
https://archive.vn/BRbTY
Lots of conspiracy stuff here that has nothing to do with NATO’s alleged Eastern expansion.
The simple and obvious point is that Baker can’t have been making a promise not to expand into Poland, the Baltics, Hungary and Ukraine, because at the time they were still in the Warsaw Pact!
Another propagandistic armwave without engaging with the evidence, typical example why everyone considers you a troll.
Are you saying GLADIO didn’t exist? Because that’s a ridiculous position given the plethora of evidence from Italian and Belgen court documents alone.
GLADIO did exist, although not at the level that conspiracists like to claim. But we could fill 100 pages arguing about that and forget why we started..
Specifically, when it comes to claims made about Baker’s ‘not an inch further east’ comment, they are absurd. He can’t possibly have been talking about a set of countries which at the time were still fully paid up members of the Warsaw Pact.
You Sir, are an outright liar, and a complete fraud.
1) Strawman, nobody is spouting “conspiracy theories” John has gone to the trouble to find the research and has linked the evidence for people to make their own minds up. Nobody is theorising about anything, except YOU
2) His post said nothing about Baker, more stawmanney, it’s mentioned in the previous post.
3) Johns previous post inludes links to the primary evidence from when quotes can be read:
.
.
.
This is why you’re written off as a troll, you lie, you strawman, and obsfucate the the truth of any matter you post on that disagrees with your warped world view. You are a complete fraud with ZERO credibility.
The Feb 9 meeting reported above was only the second of 4 bilateral meetings between the key players. It wasn’t the final position, it was part of the negotiations.
No treaty was signed on the 9th.
By the end of the 4th bilateral meeting on Feb 24-5th, Kohl & Baker agreed to go for full NATO membership of a united Germany. The policy was essentially to ‘bribe’ Gorbachev to accept it, because East Germany and Russia were in economic crisis. It worked, and that’s what Gorbachev agreed to in a final meeting in July.
Is arming a CIA-backed, neo-Nazi collaborating regime wrong?
On every level, yes
I’m convinced “that supplying arms is definitely the wrong thing to do.”
It will prolong the inevitable Russian victory and cause more unnecessary deaths.
Any foreign arms entering Ukraine is a legitimate target.
Israel has been destroying arms shipments in Syria with impunity for years.
I don’t know the rights and wrongs of Russia V Ukraine. But I look at the people lining up against Putin, with Foggy Groper front of the line, and I ask myself if I can support any movement that they support.
Yep: I tend to think that if Johnson is for it, I’m against it.
The West shouldn’t have supplied arms, money, intelligence and special forces operatives, and training to the 10% Nazi element in the Ukrainian military and politics and then directed them to direct fire at civilians in Donbass for 8 years.
But it did.
Why?
Because it wanted war. It wants dead civilians in the forefront of the media, which is why they are arming the civilians with peashooters, or at most rifles with 10 rounds and not allowing them to leave.
The truth will out eventually.
Earthquake monitoring stations across the globe are scratching their heads over an inexplicable event measuring 8 on the Richter Scale located about 100 miles south of Moscow.
It is being caused by the great anti-war / anti-nationalism / pro-spirituality writer Lev Tolstoy spinning in his Yasnya Polyana grave.
He is particularly perturbed that the Russian Orthodox Church (from which he was excommunicated) continues to pretend that mass murder and destruction (in this case a ‘Special Military Operation’) can be carried out in the name of Jesus – a man who gave up his life in the name of peace.
PS to my above – It is of course ‘Richter Scale’ rather than ‘Richer Scale’ (must have been a shockwave that made my hand slip!), have asked mods to correct.
At the rate Ukrainians are fleeing their benighted country we should be sending them legs, not arms.
That strange sound you can hear above the gunfire and bomb blasts is Klaus Schwab and the Great Resetters applauding the success of their proxy war.
When the feck is the world going to wake up and start taking on our real enemies – the oligarchs of the WEF and their political acolytes?
When will the West be told the real truth. Russia is winning this war. They have created humanitarian corridors. Civilians have not been killed in a y numbers as the bio labs and military sites have been the target. The Russians want to remove the dangerous forces from the ground as the British wanted to do in Germany during 1940s.
when will the West learn to to tell the truth to its citizens. Ukraine was bought by CIA. The Laptop from Hell had most of the evidence of Democrat/Globalist treachery.
When will the West learn they cannot keep walking into countries they desire to control and change the government after destroying the people and their culture. There is now a political shift in the East of the World where y the Americans are hated and the dollar is going to be destroyed. Where does that leave Europe??? It’s time the British Government stopped following the Globalist EU and doing what America wants to appease any tantrums.
The people of Western countries are going to have such a deep and painful shock when they realise the lies that have been fed them. Their taxes have been used for warmongering and regime change to suit Globalist power. The psychological fall out from knowing our ‘kindness’ was in no more than greed and virtue signalling due to our stupidity and lack of critical thinking. I was angered when I saw so many Ukrainian flags flying in my town, so many concerts arranged and gatherings to collect money. All after two years of not mixing with friends and family. Of losing loved ones and dealing with mental issued, people are still stupid enough to accept the propaganda they have been fed.
Putin has lied repeatedly and obviously in the last few weeks (eg “we won’t invade’, ‘there is no war’, ‘we have no casualties’).
This is supposed to be website for sceptics. Be sceptical!
I see you didn’t even bother trying to defend the accusation of Western propaganda. Just turned it into another attack on Putin.
The point is, we’re supposed to have liberalist values in the West. It’s not Putin that’s undermining them, it’s our own establishment.
It’s extraordinary and sad to witness the unrelenting attack on free media since 9/11, while people instead put blind faith in random things they find on the internet and state propaganda channels.
There are circa 10 million refugees coming out of Ukraine – the biggest exodus since WW2. But according to Putin News, the Russians never hit civilian areas, it’s the Ukrainians bombing themselves. And people here…they believe it!
This website is looking more like a QAnon get-together every day.
I completely agree with timsk below, though I think Noah has done a good job within the limitations of his argument(s) (and I doubt I would agree with ‘Ian’, whose article I haven’t read). Everyone would do well to listen to Lara Logan, an award-winning journalist, on what’s going on in Ukraine, and to Whitney Webb in her interview with Robert F Kennedy Jr ‘The CiA’s pervasive involvement in Ukraine’ (based on her article ‘Ukraine and the new Al Qaeda’).
Why anyone believes or trusts our MSM now, after two years or more of lies and more lies is beyond me.
Why do you believe Putin, who has lied repeatedly in the last few weeks?
Your anti-Putin obsession is fanatical.
The poster offered two WESTERN sources with non-mainstream opinions and yet you respond by saying – why believe Putin?
Firstly, Putin’s lies are indisputable as they include the claim that he had no intention of invading and ‘there is no war’. I assume you agree with that.
Secondly, the West is a free country and all views are permitted, including fringe views. Lara Logan is an outright conspiracy theorist who was so incompetent as a journalist that she was sacked from Fox News. Which takes some doing.
The West’s lies are indisputable and their hypocrisy is breath-taking. Your argument seems to be – yes the West lies, but Putin lies more. That’s still debatable.
And presumably you must have missed all the censorship in the MSM and Big Tech over the last two years?
I think you’re misinterpreting comments as being pro-Putin when they’re not. It just happens that Putin’s enemy in the “information war” happens to be mine.
What’s the West? It’s dozens of governments and thousands of media outlets. Between they cover every end of the spectrum.
What’s Putin’s Russia? One single controlled line. Putin is personally responsible for all the lies, because nothing happens unless he allows it.
Absolutely you’re being pro-Putin whether you want to or not. You’re equating the total state control of media under`Putin with the chaos of the west.
Do you actually know any journalists? Do you realise how impossible it is for the UK government to control them?
Get real.
Ever heard of the “Trusted News Initiative”?
You think the Trusted News Initiative is in any way equivalent to the arrest of journalists in Russia?
It’s like saying a slap on the wrist is morally equivalent to execution.
Putin is aggressively anti democratic. But maybe you don’t like democracy. Maybe you prefer it Putin-style.
Your one-sided blinkeredness is embarrassing, unless of course you’re part of the state apparatus – that would make sense.
And in response to your other comment, trying to caricature those of us on this side of the argument as crazy conspiracy theorists is indicative of your pathetic obsequiousness to the establishment.
As for “being pro-Putin whether you want to or not” – too bad. Putin hasn’t done anything to me, whereas the UK establishment (including its MSM) declared war on me as an individual in March 2020.
I will never forgive and never forget. The battle goes on.
Putin’s agents killed Dawn Sturgess, an ordinary British citizen.
The more I research this situation the more I realise that the real aggressors are the USA and UK. They are leading the way for the World Economic Forum’s ‘Great Reset’. Brexit? Forget it! Boris is selling us straight into the arms of his Globalist mentors! Putin passionately believes in Russia’s sovereignty and has warned the West against Globalism. The sheer depth and breadth of the WEF’s training programmes aimed at government and education infiltration, is mind blowing. Putin is fighting to retain his nation’s sovereignty. I for one, feel ashamed to be British.
You’re no less misguided than the Guardian readers who are ashamed to be white.
Give it a rest, Carl. Stop digging.
I can only re-iterate what was already said. Our PM and most part of MPs don’t care about Ukrainians, but it’s convinient for them now blame everything on the russian bogeyman. I’m surprised they have not attempted yet to blame him for the poor performance of the vaccine.
Again: Neither the Western ‘global strategists’, diplomats, foreign policy politicians nor the Ukrainian fanatics are stupid.
As such, they must have fully understood and agreed with Putin, Kissinger, Mearsheimer&co, namely that Ukraine can only prosper and live in peace if it stays neutral and does not discriminate against its Russian population.
Ergo, they WANTED this war, did everything they could to get it and are in truth now very happy they finally got it. (See the link inc. a video below where one of Zelenskyy’s chief military advisers even outright stated just that.)
Only the deluded and naive could have thought otherwise and only they and the fanatics think that Russia will lose, NATO should get involved, more weapons should be delivered and that this can and will then end with Russian regime change and a by Russia forever accepted Ukrainian NATO membership.
But all these criminals and idi*ts are indeed now surprised and mortified by Russia hooking up with China, the RoW not going along with the sanctions and the disastrous de-dollarization effect of their stupid, criminal and suicidal abolition of property rights, aka sanctions.
That is why they are now desperate and getting ever more shrill, volatile, incoherent and, above all, dangerous.
As ever, Cui bono? gives the answer what was and is really going on and who is, as always, behind all that and gleefully rubbing its hands now:
MIC(IMATT) and the OGM complex in the West.
https://www.broeckers.com/2022/03/18/notizen-vom-ende-der-unipolaren-welt-4/
Putin’s Russia discriminates against all kinds of minorities.
In Russia, a website such as this one which criticises the government, would be shut down. And you would be in jail.
If he/she/”they” was/are or possibly were lucky….
Sanctions war against Russia is failing. China and India harden their stance against sanctions on Russia
Rouble has not dropped as catastrophically as Biden regime wished. Could not collapse Russian economy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLBC1xXRZp4&ab_channel=TheDuran
Can we cut the Putin propaganda machine for a day or two?
So the New York post and speccie are claiming there is legs to the hunter Biden story and that Biden juniors 2014 involvement in Ukraine May have something to do with the current war.
trump was a liability but far less lethal than sleepy joe.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-did-the-media-cover-up-the-hunter-biden-laptop-story-
https://newtube.app/TonyHeller/jTsKJdR
The deep state curtain is pulled back but how to turn the current narrative is another question.
Russia Mod: Briefing on analysis of documents related to US military and biological activities in Ukraine
http://thesaker.is/russia-mod-briefing-on-analysis-of-documents-related-to-us-military-and-biological-activities-in-ukraine/
We believe that components of biological weapons were created on the territory of Ukraine
Here is a document dated March 6, 2015, confirming the Pentagon’s direct participation in the financing of military biological projects in Ukraine.
From our point of view, the interest of US military biologists is due to the fact that these pathogens have natural foci both on the territory of Ukraine and in Russia, and their use can be disguised as natural outbreaks of diseases.
The documents received by the Russian Ministry of Defence indicate that research in this area is systematic and has been conducted since at least 2009 under the direct supervision of specialists from the United States within the framework of projects P-382, P-444 and P-568.
During the implementation of these projects, six families of viruses (including coronaviruses) and three types of pathogenic bacteria (pathogens of plague, brucellosis and leptospirosis) were identified. This is due to the main characteristics of these pathogens that make them favourable for the purposes of infection: resistance to drugs, rapid speed of spread from animals to humans, etc.
https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/13.1.0/svg/25ab.svgIt is necessary to note a number of documents confirming the transfer of bioassays selected in Ukraine to the territory of third countries, including Germany, Great Britain, Georgia.
In addition, attention is drawn to the fact of a sharp increase in cases of tuberculosis caused by new multi-resistant strains among citizens living in Lugansk and Donetsk people’s republics in 2018. These data are confirmed by specialists of Rospotrebnadzor. During the mass outbreak recorded in the area of Peski settlement, more than 70 cases of the disease were detected, which ended in a rapid fatal outcome. This may indicate a deliberate infection, or an accidental leakage of the pathogen from one of the biolabs located on the territory of Ukraine.
Found this comment on Igor’s newsletter: no idea if it is true.
Didn’t Bill Gates mention a smallpox outbreak caused by terrorism at one time?
The US-Ukraine biolabs will throw a spanner in the forget-the-covid-now handiwork.
Both the Russians and the Chinese are after the U.S. bioweapons, and they are mighty motivated
Word of mouth from a military source in the area: Chimeric SARS-smallpox construct found either physically or in lab documentation; projected mortality, 80%.
If I recall correctly, official Russian sources mentioned H5N1 flu lab discovery; projected mortality, 50%.
After having read a number of the comments below, I feel it would be helpful to clarify just who is _not_ in actual control of Western and Western-aligned ‘democracies’. IMHO, such an understanding is crucial in assessing Establishment policies and actions.
In a manner akin to that of a prosecutor laying out a case for a jury, John Titus walks us through the evidence:
* * * All the Plenary’s Men * * *
Starring:
Adair Turner, George Osborne, Mervyn King, Mark Carney, Ben Bernanke and Timothy Geithner.
Supporting cast:
Loretta Lynch, Lanny Breuer and Eric Holder.
Talent coordinator:
Goldman Sachs.
56:41
Apr 28, 2017
BestEvidence
All the Plenary’s Men – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gK3s5j7PgA
Backup link and description:
“This incredibly well researched documentary by John Titus tells the real life tale illustrating how the financial systems of the world are nothing more than global criminal banking cartels immune to law. The story covers HSBC’s exoneration in December 2012 for laundering money for drug dealers and terrorists, and sadly this documentary didn’t get nearly the scrutiny it deserved. You see, prosecutors working on the HSBC case were actually going to indict the bank, but they got overruled, and HSBC and its team of criminals skated. The story of how exactly that reversal came about reveals, if not the King himself, then certainly many of the King’s top men. Make the coffee extra strong before viewing! Lots of ground gets covered, very quickly.”
56:56
L33T GUY
All the Plenary’s Men [2017] – “The Definitive HSBC Scandal Documentary” – YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LdIR9cCeBE
As mentioned in ‘All the Plenary’s Men’:
23 November 2021
2021 List of Global Systemically Important Banks (G-SIBs) – Financial Stability Board
https://www.fsb.org/2021/11/2021-list-of-global-systemically-important-banks-g-sibs/
Re the U.K.’s governance:
Page 28 of 129
“Of this concealed dual nature of the British Government, George Burton Adams, late Professor of History, Emeritus, Yale University, authoritatively develops in his “Constitutional History of England” that the members of the British Cabinet are strangely impotent; are not permitted to make any written notations of proceedings of the Cabinet; have no access to records of proceedings, if any, made by the Prime Minister; are not permitted to make reference afterwards to anything that had transpired at a meeting of the Cabinet (page 493). He further develops the utter lack of power of the House of Commons and of the House of Lords (pages 472-474); states “The House of Commons no longer controls the Executive; on the contrary the Executive controls the House of Commons.” (Page 495.) There is a distinction between the Government of Great Britain, which is largely confined to the internal government of the British Isles, and the British Government which controls the British Empire.”
(Copyright May 22, 1944)
The Empire Of “The City” – the-empire-of-the-city.pdf
https://www.1215.org/lawnotes/misc/the-empire-of-the-city.pdf
(Copyright May 22, 1944)
The Empire of The City: E. C. Knuth: 9780944379127: Books
https://www.amazon.com/Empire-City-C-Knuth/dp/0944379125
NOTE: The spelling checking feature of whatever scanning software that was long ago employed to scan a copy of the above rare book into a .pdf hasn’t been kind to the text e.g. the British word ‘consols’ was not recognized by said software which then changed it to ‘consorts’. As long as these random translation errors are kept in mind the .pdf is good enough to get the point across.
The Anglo-American Establishment : Carroll Quigley : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
https://archive.org/details/carrollquigley_angloamericanestablishment
The Anglo-American Establishment (9780945001010): Carroll Quigley: Books
https://www.amazon.com/Anglo-American-Establishment-Carroll-Quigley/dp/0945001010