Many commentators simply take for granted that supplying arms to Ukraine is the right thing to do. This is by no means clear to me – even if you believe Russia is entirely in the wrong.
Of course, Western countries have already sent billions of dollars worth of weapons (including thousands of anti-tank and anti-air missile launchers) over the last few years, and especially the last few months. So a more pertinent question would be, “Was it moral to arm Ukraine?”
Let’s consider the possible consequences of sending arms versus not doing so. If we hadn’t sent arms, Russia’s invasion would presumably have had a far higher chance of success. It’s not entirely clear what Russia’s objectives are, but a reasonable worst-case scenario is that they would have annexed half the country.
This is clearly a very bad outcome from the point of view of most Ukrainians, who would prefer to live under Ukrainian rule than under Russian rule. (I’m assuming that outside Crimea and the Donbass, there isn’t much support for Russian annexation.)
But are there outcomes worse than Russia annexing half the country after a swift military victory? I think we can clearly say there are worse outcomes. Here’s one: a very bloody conflict that drags on for ten years.
As I noted in a previous post, the Syrian Civil War is now in its eleventh year, having claimed more than 400,000 lives – more than double the number who died in the extremely bloody Yugoslav wars. And one reason it has dragged on for so long is external arming of rebel groups.
Now, Bashar al-Assad may be a very bad guy. You don’t have to like him or his regime to acknowledge there can be few outcomes worse than the Syrian Civil War – worse, I mean, for ordinary Syrians. Which raises the question, “Was it moral for the US to arm rebel groups in Syria?” And it seems very plausible to me the answer is, “No.”
Returning to Ukraine, some commentators have already said the West should try to turn Ukraine into “another Afghanistan” – a protracted conflict that depletes Russia’s military and financial resources to the point where the regime collapses (or something along those lines). This strikes me as deeply immoral.
First, it’s by no means clear that regime collapse in Russia would be a good thing. Yes, Putin is a bad guy. But he could be replaced by someone just as bad or worse. Alternatively, regime collapse could lead to chaos or anarchy, which is not something we want in a state armed with thousands of nukes.
Second, a protracted conflict in Ukraine could wreak the same kind of devastation as Syria’s civil war: entire cities destroyed, and hundred of thousands killed. This has led some commentators to cynically remark that “the United States will fight for Ukraine, to the very last Ukrainian”.
There are several possible replies from those who insist we must send arms (or that we were definitely right to do so). The first is that Ukraine has a much higher chance of actually winning. This is clearly their strongest argument. Hence I would say the risk of prolonged insurgency has to be balanced against the chance of a quick Ukrainian victory.
Another reply is that the Ukrainians want to fight. But which Ukrainians? And for how long? While some young men might relish the prospect of taking up arms to defend their homeland, the same is unlikely to be true of most women, let alone elderly citizens or those with families.
And will ordinary Ukrainians be just as keen to fight if the war drags on for months or even years? Once weapons have found their way into the hands of diehard fighters on the front lines, the rest of the population may be committed to an insurgency – whether it wants one or not.
Yet another reply is that we have to stand up to Putin’s aggression. But if the effect of doing so is to turn Ukraine into another Afghanistan, maybe not standing up to his aggression is the lesser evil. The West benefits from deterrence, but ordinary Ukrainians pay the price? This doesn’t seem like a very good deal for the Ukrainians.
The fundamental problem for the West is that we’re unwilling to “stand up to Putin’s aggression” by actually putting boots on the ground. And for good reason: we don’t want to risk a nuclear war. Conditional on this being the case, doing less on the military front might be better than doing more. Why not pressure both sides to negotiate?
Of course, if we lived in a world without nuclear weapons, we could enter the war on Ukraine’s side and probably achieve a decisive victory over Russia – thanks to America’s overwhelming military power. But that isn’t the world we live in. And we have to make plans based on reality.
Now, it’s entirely possible that, thanks to all the arms we’ve sent, the Ukrainians will either defeat the Russians, or will hold out long enough to bargain for a good settlement. But it’s also possible they’ll find themselves locked into a very bloody conflict that develops a momentum of its own.
The fact that Western leaders don’t seem to even be considering the latter possibility – or, like Hillary Clinton, are actively cheering it on – is not a good sign.


Discussion
Comments
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Of course what is happening is driven by the arms companies who just see any war, as long as possible, as profit for them. I suppose the arguments in favour of what is happening is that it will drive Putin to the negotiating table and discourage him from attacking other former Soviet countries. In any case Putin will only negotiate if he is not seen to lose, so hopefully a solution can be found that stops the bloodshed on both sides and both can grudingly accept. Lets face it nobody will get a clean win from this, so its time for both sides to be sensible and accept compromise.
Quite simply, Russia/Putin will win in Ukraine and will achieve his aims – Ukraine will be definitively separated from NATO, Donets and Lugansk will achieve full de facto independence (regardless of the wording of the final settlement), Crimea will be permanently reunited with Russia, and Ukraine will be decisively defeated. It is just a matter of will it happen today, next week or in six month’s time.
Supplying weapons just prolongs the pain, increases casualties (especially civilian ones, which are near zero in a quick campaign) and will result in high financial costs, especially in the EU, dealing with refugees, instability, new terror groups arising etc.
So, the possibly thousands of civilian deaths are really down to NATO, US, UK etc. And not only because Russia had very reasonable grounds for its initial, limited, action.
I feel that the real reason for this fiasco is US/NATO trying to act as a global strongman, after the disaster in Afghanistan, which showed itcascweak, ineffective, unreliable and bordering on the outright genocidal.
The only major difference I would have with the article is that Russia could occupy large parts of Ukraine without massive local opposition – not just Crimea and Donbas. Kharkiv was… Read more »
17 july 2014 russian troops acting out of east ukraine shot down flight mh17, a civilian airliner killing all 296 on board.
russia denied responsibility and immediately claimed, amongst other claims, that it was ukrainian troops that did it.
putin started this in 2014 and the only reason russia now invaded ukraine again was because he was not made accountable in 2014.
he got away with it.
and he will continue to be a threat until he gets stopped once and for all.
Noah Carl’s article is defective in many respects.
Firstly, the Yugoslav wars did indeed go on a long time. But in that case there was a UN arms embargo. Instead, we in Europe sat back to watch as the Serbs (who had inherited almost all the military equipment from the break up of Yugoslavia) pounded Sarajevo into the dust. Just as in Ukraine, an arms embargo effectively gives the aggressor all the advantages.
Secondly, it’s wholly unreasonable to assume that Putin ‘only’ wants half the country. Just rubbish. Would we be willing give up half our country?
Thirdly, by Noah’s logic, we should only resist aggressors if we’re certain of winning. But it’s not always at all clear who’s going to win at the start. By any military logic Britain should have sued for peace against Hitler after Dunkirk – but instead, we went on to win. Meanwhile in Ukraine, the possibility of Russian defeat is already genuine, just a couple of weeks into the war.
Fourthly, the issue is not just about Ukraine. If Putin were allowed to get away with seizing Ukraine that it greatly encourages military aggressors everywhere, including China in Taiwan. Doing nothing in… Read more »
one simply does not give in to the likes of putin and hitler.
chamberlain, daladier and the entirety of europe found out why.
‘It’s possible…the Ukrainians will hold out long enough to bargain for a good settlement’.
You mean like someone beating you up in the street, trying to take all your money, then agreeing to take just half of it and telling you you’ve had a good deal?
I keep rereading this article, each time with mounting incredulity…..Noah Carl appears to be saying that the West should stand aside and let Putin get on with it. How is that a moral position to take?
Arming the Ukrainians is simply the least bad option, Noah.
This follows Noah Carl’s previous suggestion that NATO is to blame for the Russian aggression. Is the man on Putin’s payroll? To make comparisons between Assad’s Syria and Ukraine is perverse. Beyond scepticism, into apologia.
Nothing the US does is based on any semblance of morality.
This article from 2014 seems remarkably prescient and sets the scene for what is happening right now in Ukraine. Wars are the escalation of squabbles by ruling and owning elites over sources of raw materials, markets, areas of strategic significance, and political intrigue. My sympathies lie with those ordinary folk enduring or fleeing conflict in Ukraine, those in Russia suffering from the effects of sanctions, and all of us in Europe who will shortly be doing likewise. We’re all just cattle…
https://www.globalresearch.ca/a-world-war-in-the-offing-why-us-nato-geopolitics-could-lead-to-a-third-world-war/5399125
Zelensky was a comedian – not a member of an “elite”.
The world has a chance now to take stock.
Russia seems suddenly reluctant to reduce Kiev to Rubble with artillery as they did with Berlin and Grozny. And as Britons did to Munich and Hamburg, if it were me not Putin, it would be different. I’m of the Bomber Harris mindset, Arthur Harris conducted the 1,000 bomber raids dropping 10,000 tons of high explosives per night over large populated cities of Germany. It was helpful to end the war quickly, which is my main hope now. But I marvel at Putin’s restraint. Harris, by comparison , famously remarked that he regarded the entire civilian population of Germany was worth less than the healthy bones of a single English grenadier. I can dig that idea! As a father I believe I would have agreed with all my heart, and I would have broke every sinew to drop even more bombs or get the Atom Bomb to end it in one day. So, to me, Putin’s patience over Ukraine has been absolutely remarkable, he’s given the shitty world a chance to take stock.We should make use of that chance , and dump the crazy warlike leaders of Britain and America.
“I’m of the Bomber Harris mindset, Arthur Harris conducted the 1,000 bomber raids dropping 10,000 tons of high explosives per night over large populated cities of Germany. It was helpful to end the war quickly, which is my main hope now. But I marvel at Putin’s restraint. Harris, by comparison , famously remarked that he regarded the entire civilian population of Germany was worth less than the healthy bones of a single English grenadier. I can dig that idea! “
I can understand that approach, and to some extent it has intellectual legitimacy, in theory.
My problem with it in practice is that, in my experience, those who claim to embrace it are often the first to whine like toddlers when the same approach is used against their own side.
If you’re happy to dish it out, you should be prepared to take it in turn.
In no sense is anybody making the Ukrainians defend their country. Sending weapons simply gives them agency, the ability to effectively fight if they choose to. There is nothing immoral about that.
I personally think we could do more. Mutually assured destruction prevented nuclear war in much more fraught situations in the past. Why would everyone go insane now?
Conservatives are as emotional as anyone. They just think a tedious intellectual argument places them above others. But these weak, finger on the scale arguments, suggest to me that conservatives being right about covid and the woke are exceptions. I wonder if their populism is mostly skin deep.
If fear of taxes is going to prevent conservatives from acting to defang the billionaires who fuel the globalist elite, conservatives will never be effective. You can rightfully earn 100 million or so. Beyond that it is the fruit of rent seeking and cronyism.
I think the question is why is the west arming Ukraine?
It is one of, if not the most corrupt country in the world. It has been asset stripped by a series of political events since the wall came down. It was a hugely productive, successful industrial nation at one point, now all gone.
So what exactly does the west get in return for all these weapons they are just handing over.
The perpetuation of the conflict is merely creating a growing refugee crisis, but they’re not fleeing from much, so what’s in it for the west?
Are we to believe that Putin’s next target will be surrounding nations, many of which are members of NATO, and if he sets foot in those countries, the gloves are off.
It has been stated by many that Ukraine would never be part of NATO, the reasons now are pretty obvious, so the reasons for the war are hardly going to produce another NATO country if Putin withdraws.
The west had virtually abandoned the country, but seems to have stalked it to bring it into the western fold. But that simply ruined the country. Why does the west suddenly rush to the aid… Read more »
How on earth do you make out that Ukraine is more corrupt than Russia or Belarus? Prior to this war, Ukraine was a country on the up, despite Putin’s proxy war in the Donbass.
‘Prior to this war, Ukraine was a country on the
up,take,despite Putin’s proxythen after a CIA-backed coup, it started a war in the Donbass.’Previous Ukrainian presidents were Russian stooges, like Lukashenko in Belarus is now. It was Russia that made Ukraine corrupt, just as Russia itself is spectacularly corrupt and wholly dependant on hydrocarbons for its existence. It was not a CIA coup and the very idea that the CIA could have pulled that off in Ukraine. Russia’s backyard, without the Russians noticing is laughable. Lots of people queuing up here to tell Ukrainians to accept Russian domination.
There is one point missed here.
If Ukraine ‘wins’ the ‘conventional’ conflict then Russia still has the existential problem that it started with.
And why should it then throw its hand in?
Whatever is expected by armchair warriors in the west, it probably doesn’t include a nuclear exchange in Europe, but that is where we are heading, because all other options will have been exhausted by Russia. And from what we now know, the Russians have an unanswerable deliver system, while the US trials of a similar delivery system are so far unsuccessful.
Perhaps someone needs to point out to those European countries currently housing US nuclear weapons that, because the US will use them to try to take out the new Russian nuclear delivery systems that will hit E.g. NORAD without being stopped, then the Russians will take them out first rendering swathes of Europe uninhabitable for decades.
How likely is that really?
Have all other options been exhausted by Russia tho?
Currently only ~30% of Russias ground forces are deployed in Ukraine, Vs everything Ukraine has, I’m not sure about airpower, but it doesn’t seem to have been utilised to it’s fullest capability as yet.
It’s a bit early to be writing them off and wetting our pants about mushroom clouds, which seems highly unlikely given the immediate response, and complete destruction it would bring to Moscow.
Not only has Russia not deployed a major portion of its forces, those it has deployed seem to be mainly inept conscripts with no experience and it has kept its elite units and top line equipment back.
The whole point of arming Ukraine and tangling NATO membership in front of them was to provoke a Russian invasion, so that the MI and the OMG complexes get their dough and the neocons could prevent Germany from getting ever closer to Russia.
None of them ever cared about the Ukrainian people, to the contrary, they used them as pawns and cannon fodder most deliberately.
(I doubt they even contemplated the alternative to the closer Europe/Russia relations developing aka what’s happening now, namely the Russia-China& axis and de-dollarization, and harbored automatic regime change delusions only instead.)
Sending more arms to Ukraine now though will only prolong the conflict for a few more weeks and kill more Ukrainians unnecessarily- not that they would care about the latter.
Doing what Tony Blair, the Poles and the US chicken hawks want might save Ukraine, might lead to regime change in Russia, might stop the Russian/Chinese axis and de-dollarization, but at the certain expense of nuclear war and deserted total wastelands in a decimated Europe incl. the UK (which wouldn’t bother the Americans much and Tony Blair would likely flee there, and Bill&Klaus will also be in favor of its depopulation part, so… Read more »
Our weapons (not defensive equipment, weapons) will prolong the war and lead to more death. Obviously that’s‘wrong’. Action calculated to result in the needless, pointless deaths of innocent people is always ‘wrong’. But our leaders have decided a prolonged and bloody war makes very good strategic sense. It won’t be their kids dying, after all.
It should be possible to have an open debate about this, but they’ve made that impossible (deliberately) by framing the supply of weapons as being ‘aid’.
Aid doesn’t splinter bones and splatter blood. it doesn’t cause death and misery. It’s not supplied by Lockheed Martin.
Our weapons will prolong the war. That’s the intention. It’s a strategic gamble, enabled by our gullible population. Just like lockdowns were enabled by gullible idiots clapping like seals for the NHS.
We in the west have the governments – corrupt, cynical, exploitative warmongers – that our gullibility deserves. It’s the people in Ukraine who will pay the price of our stupidity.
There are reports and pics/bids from Pisa and Germany that aid containers are emptied and filled with weapons instead.
Wouldn’t surprise me at all anymore.
Well you are quite gullible.
Fuck off tree.
https://newsrnd.com/news/2022-03-15-italian-airport-workers-refuse-to-load-weapons-into-ukraine-under-cover-of-humanitarian-aid.Sy
So you might consider the russian invasion wrong, as it leads to so much suffering.
Why can’t you say this? Is it not in the sceptics handbook?
But no, you blame the invasion on the west.
“But no, you blame the invasion on the west.”
As do most informed commentators on the subject. You just don’t hear from them on the BBC.
‘Our weapons (not defensive equipment, weapons) will prolong the war and lead to more death.’ So what are you suggesting – anyone who gets invaded should always just give up?
Oh dear, the obligatory stab at Assad as the very bad guy and the almost automatic, but likely highly speculative assumption that NATO would beat Russia in a conventional war in Europe. Hello, did somebody mention Afghanistan?
Not keeping up with military developments over the past few years seems to be endemic in the complacent West. If Russia really was such a pushover then just why aren’t we helping our nice new friends in the Ukraine with boots on the ground as Russia will not use nuclear weapons unless it faces an existential attack upon its own territory or the West uses them first. Billions have been spent encouraging Ukrainians to be “good Europeans”, what a pity to see it all go to waste?
You should check to see if NATO has ever had a war with Russia in Afghanistan. Or any war in Afghanistan.
America IS NATO………..
I’m too young to remember in detail, but I seem to recall something similar happening in Afghanistan against the Russians and look how that turned out.
The USSR, which included the Ukraine, did make a strategic withdrawal from Afghanistan. So yes it does seem likely that you are too young to remember things all that clearly.
After invading for no particular reason or advantage to Russia.
You will find that no matter what Russia achieves with this murderous invasion, it will lose overall.
Your cover is blown.
Russia didn’t invade Afghanistan, the USSR did.
“Of course, if we lived in a world without nuclear weapons, we could enter the war on Ukraine’s side and probably achieve a decisive victory over Russia – thanks to America’s overwhelming military power.”
Seriously? How did the US’s ‘overwhelming military power’ do in Viet Nam and Afghanistan?
My take on it is that nuance isn’t sexy or sells copy – including subscribers and income from podcasts. Being ‘extreme’ or ‘edgy’ gets you noticed, then what happens is that most just dial it back a bit, rather than say that there’s more than element of truth from each side of a debate or issue.
This is especially true of the war in the Ukraine, when the facts of matter have been severly muddied by both sides, including their ‘backers’.
MoD view:
Who cares whether it’s moral or not? What an opportunity to test our weapons under real conditions!
Might I suggest, that if all you’re doing is assuming rather than knowing, all the rest of the article is totally meaningless as it’s all based on an assumption that half the country wouldn’t much prefer to be under Russian control, than under US control (which is really the options at this point).
Please stop with these op-ed “analyses” telling me what to think.
This is not why I’m here.
What’s gonna happen to the arms industry when we realize we’re all one. Ha ha ha ha ha! It’s gonna fuck up the economy! The economy that’s fake anyway! Ha ha ha! Which would be a real bummer. You know. You can see why the government’s cracking down… on the idea of experiencing unconditional love, ah.
Bill Hicks
Gifts of Forgiveness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXwAU6LVb8Q
The arms industry and morality hardly fit together in the same sentence. Like the scum running Britain have any morals. Mu hahahaha. Theyll arm their Nazi friends and colleagues under the puppet government in Ukraine because thats the game theyre in. Kay Griggs made it abundantly clear that weapons sales is a HUGE part of the criminals game. And drugs of course. If you people want to live in a better world, you need to start campaigning for the decriminalisation of ALL drugs, to take this extremely lucrative industry out of the hands of the governmentcriminalinstitutions which are running the drugs worldwide. They fund a lot of their off the books black ops via the money from drugs sales. It is in their interests for drugs to be illegal and crimialised, hence why drugs are illegal and crimialised.… Read more »
An idea I have been considering is based around how we know that really, all these puppets like Putin and Johnson and Biden and Merkel and Macron – the whole rotten clownshow, are controlled ultimately by the same entities. Schwabs statement about Putin being a bitch of the WEF is now a very easy to prove example of this – how all governments are being controlled by the same criminal mafia, albeit set against each other in the Grand Chessboard game of divide and rule. So with this is mind, and knowing how the controllers plan things decades in advance, Im wondering whether this clearly scripted war (is anyone else noticing how fake and contrived the press coverage in the UK is – it comes across as being so disingenuous, but the morons are lapping it up and get very funny if you dont go along with the MSM narrative, usual mind tricks at work) and particularly the rationale for the war – the Nazi presence, the bioweapons labs, NATO breaking all the rules etc – are in fact carefully and intentionally laid traps to provide the justification for this very war. In other words, they have engineered this situation… Read more »
Interesting article and comments:
10 Signs the War in Ukraine is part of the Great Reset
https://off-guardian.org/2022/03/14/10-signs-the-war-in-ukraine-is-part-of-the-great-reset/
Arming a nation state’s military as a deterrent to invasion is not necessarily a bad idea, unless there happens to be a civil war already going on between Nazis and civilians, and you are inadvertently arming the Nazis – oops.
Arming a nation state’s military during an invasion is not necessarily bad, unless the nation state has no chance of victory and is desperately giving out weapons to civilians and released prisoners, while encouraging those civilians to throw Molotov cocktails at tanks – oops.
There is no way that it is ever moral to encourage civilians to attack a professional army like this. If you are having to resort to using civilians as cannon fodder (in the hope of some emotional propaganda), then the moral action is to negotiate and if all else fails, surrender. That is what a brave government would do. It may cost the government their liberty or even their lives but at least your people survive. But in these corrupt times, how many of our governments actually prioritise their populous’ interests over their own?
“Let’s consider the possible consequences of sending arms versus not doing so. If we hadn’t sent arms, Russia’s invasion would presumably have had a far higher chance of success. It’s not entirely clear what Russia’s objectives are, but a reasonable worst-case scenario is that they would have annexed half the country.”
Then perhaps turn their attention to the Baltic states. Those Baltic states that are in NATO.
There will be no no fly zone as that would instigate WW3. An invasion of a NATO country would also mean WW3.
Better the Russians see what NATO fire power can do, they may think twice.
they may not, you ready to spill your blood for a bunch of globalist twats?
“Who will fight for a country that is no longer recognizably one’s own country, but a multicultural one ?”
“I would not fight for Britain. The country that I knew and loved is gone forever, and I’m not the only person of my generation who feels that way. Also, we only have to observe our many war veterans homeless and uncared for by politicians, who feign piety and fake grief at the Cenotaph every November.”
From David Starkey’s ‘Fighting for Your Country’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GsEQRb5gf0
If you don’t like a multi cultural country, what does that make you?
I have news for you..it is a reality. Get used to it
Starkey embarrassing himself parading obvious propaganda as reality.
I can’t stick Starkey tbh, his cluelessness on full display there.
The remembrance thing is a very personal affair for most vets tbh, anyone who says my grief is fake is likely to get an earful and an education about friends I lost. A lot are still brainwashed by the red white n blue, but a lot of us are left broken and abandoned, and more aware of the realities, and far more ‘awake’ than most civvies.
I spent 8 yrs cleaning up the mess from previous wars (EOD) I never fired a single round after basic, tho I ducked a few one night in Carlingford loch.
Except, in what world does Russia wish to invade Baltic states? Have you got any evidence whatsoever to back up this idea, any speech Putin might have given that this was their intention? Why would Russia want those states given the immense cost of attempting to do so?
I live in Finland and the Finns are extremely nervous about Russian tanks rumbling over the border.
ATMs have reportedly run out of cash as some Finns fear their bank cards will stop working.
Chemists shops have run out of iodine tablets (for the thyroid in case of nuclear material drifting around in the air).
Russia would like to have the Baltic states and Finland back into its empire.
‘Russia would like to have the Baltic states and Finland back into its empire.’
And the evidence for this is?
There is plenty of evidence that the Russians would not invade Ukraine, so what exactly is your point?
There are 30 years worth of statements by Putin that NATO expansion to the border of Russia is unacceptable to them. There is not a shred of evidence that there is a desire to expand. Why has it taken 8 years to recognise the eastern breakaway provinces? That doesn’t sound like a country hell bent on expansion.
“Peace in our time!”
You may notice that they have invaded another country in the last few weeks. Stop repeating russian propaganda.
It was more my opinion that ‘evidence’. Russia sees the ‘West’ as weak, and who is going to stop Russian expansion? If Russia invaded Finland, does anyone really think anyone is going to rush to the aid of Finland? Finland doesn’t even have nuclear weapons. It is a sitting duck.
I’d recommend David Starkey’s video about how Putin is not ‘mad’ but simply wants to return to Russia what it had before and restore the Empire. The Finns have had plenty of experience of their next door neighbour.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=he25Rl0fE1c
I’ve already watched it. But it sounded like a Frederick Forsyth novel. My point is, if Putin wanted to expand Russia, why hasn’t he done anything about it in his first quarter century of rule?
Your defence of Putin is sickening.
You haven’t mentioned the thirty bio-labs the Pentagon has set up and funded in the Ukraine. Why is that?
After the fall of the Soviet Union, the US gave aid to Ukraine (and other ex Soviet client states) to help them move away from their nuclear and biological weapons programmes. Note, these were Soviet programmes, conducted on Ukrainian soil. The details of the labs are on public access websites and papers are regularly published so I don’t why it’s problem now. Do you believe that Russia is ‘clean’ when it comes to biological/chemical weapons?
Dream on.
You’re talking and behaving like a petulant child.
Non-existent, but that won’t stop the trolls.
Zero!
Finland is supposedly neutral and if it so there will be no problem. Always good to have cash on hand though and to use cards as little as possible.
There’s plenty of evidence. For example, the 2007 cyber attacks on Estonia. Or the Russian Prosecutor General’s Office decision to review the legality of the 1991 Baltic independence declaration. The constant references to alleged persecutions of Russian minorities (same playbook as in Ukraine). Or the constant buzzing by Russian aircraft of every state in the region – even neutral Sweden. Basically, if you’e not in NATO, you’re in trouble.
What makes you think that is the worst case scenario?
The worst case scenario is clearly the whole of Ukraine.
“The worst case scenario is clearly the whole of Ukraine.”
Probably from the points of view of both the Ukrainians and the Russians.
Not from ours, though, as we have no legitimate strong interest in who rules in the Ukraine.
Well you could consider that the Ukrainians have a right to decide.
I’m not so childish as to let people manipulate me by appealing to supposed “rights” of countries. There are bad things happening all over the world all the time. Those who wish to manipulate you make you focus on the particular one that suites them.
The UK had the right to decide on European membership. It didn’t stop the remainers busting a gut and almost stopping a democratic decision.
As in the 2010 election?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10617533/United-States-deploy-THOUSANDS-troops.html?ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&ito=1490
It is an important question. If the moral thing to do is to not supply arms so as to shorten the war then I guess it follows it is moral to get Zelenskyy to surrender as soon as possible?
And we can look the other way when Russia invades somewhere else.
Putin’s had 25 years to invade other countries. Care to name any?
The United Kingdom.
“Why Britain’s Tories are addicted to Russian money”
https://www.politico.eu/article/britain-tories-russian-money-oligarch/
“Huge Donations To Tory Party From Russia Aren’t ‘Damaging’, According To Liz Truss”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/russian-donors-conservative-party-liz-truss-sanctions_uk_6215f2e5e4b03d0c8030ce8b
As far as invasions go, those are pretty rubbish ones.
Crimea. Ukraine you may have noticed, unless you believe lavrov.
The nation of Crimea? That invasion where no one died? Right.
Obviously Putin was assisted by already having troops in place, having previously guaranteed Ukrainian sovereign independence.
And of course the 97% percent vote in favour of not joining the Ukronazis was rather decisive.
What was it a 97% vote in favour of Crimeans voting to return to mother Russia. or was it 98%, it’s all a bit hazy now.
Check your dates. 25 years is wrong as is everything else you say.
It’s close enough. And you failed to do anything but raise another straw man.
Where did you have in mind?
Putin already said that he will not stop in Ukraine… So it’s not you who decide when and where to stop the war… Did Hitler and Stalin stop in Poland in 1939?
Reference/ link please. This is nonsense.
erm, do you need a reference that Hitler and Stalind didn’t stop in Poland in 1938? Well. Any history book would do.
About Putin… If you know Russian and who’s who in Russia please check this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaBWUAINN4E&ab_channel=%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%88%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0Live
I want a speech, document or historical record of any kind in which Putin or any member of Russian leadership expressed a desire to invade former Soviet states.
this video is the proof, Vladimir Soloviev is Putin’s Joseph Goebbels, and he is under sanctions right now.
Silly billy.
“Security specialists: Russian aggression could expand, including into Finland”
“Finnish President Sauli Niinistö met with his US counterpart Joe Biden on Friday, agreeing to strengthen its ties with Washington, in light of the rapidly-changing situation in Ukraine.”
https://yle.fi/news/3-12346890
“Russia has threatened its close Arctic neighbours Sweden and Finland with ‘military consequences’ if they join NATO.”
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10553723/Putin-turns-attention-Finland-Sweden-Kremlin-official-warns-nations.html
You do see why that doesn’t answer my point, don’t you,’?
Silly Sauli is asking for trouble.
If you lived in the Baltics, with a Russian army at your border doing ‘routine exercises’, and Putin said he had no intention invading…would you trust him?
Yes as long as you weren’t NATO or de facto NATO. Now what are your real worries?
I’m not talking about Hitler or Stalin. I’m talking about Vladimir Putin, and I can see you have no evidence for what you’re saying.
A Daily Mail article claiming that Russia has threatened Sweden and Finland.
How can you possible argue against evidence like that…
Yep that’s my argument defeated.
Daily mail, next they’ll be citing the Bill Gates Guardian comic.
Agreed, Putin is certainly right to decide what has to be done to safeguard Russia’s security.
“I’m assuming that outside Crimea and the Donbass, there isn’t much support for Russian annexation.”
Given the choice in 2011 and even 2014 perhaps half of Ukraine to the east of the Dneiper river would have chosen Russian annexation than annihilation by neo-Nazi Ukrainian fascists.
The river is not really an accurate demarcation line, if we look at the line for the vote results from 2010 it’s slightly different (note the colours are % Russian speakers rather than vote results indicated by the red line)
but I agree “would have chosen Russian annexation than annihilation by neo-Nazi Ukrainian fascists.”
How they’d vote now is anyones guess tho. If there was a ceasefire, and each region given a vote on an independant Eastern/Western Ukraine there would still be gnashing of teeth saying a referendum was at the point of a gun (even tho the last election was under the kosh of the far-right National Guard patrols).
Zelensky lost his mandate when he sided with the Far Right elements IMO so he’d have to go for starters. He was getting a lot of flack from mothers who were losing their sons to conscription to fight in the Donbass (or face 15 yrs gaol time) so I doubt anyone would miss him too much, but there’s hardly a queue of moderates to take his position. Then they’d have to sort the gas transit thing out (which is a big part of what this is really about) tho… Read more »
Since 2014 the ethnic Russians have been forced out of the east into the Donbass and Russia so a vote now is not representative of how the country voted in 2011 where it was split 49% to 45% with a victory for the pro Russian Victor Yanukovych.
Indeed, once (if) Azov et al are cleared out it seems more likely we’d get a more representative result in the East, they’ve not exactly won any hearts and minds with the human shield antics.
No if about Azov being cleared out of the East. They are dead meat.
Even in Donbass there weren’t enough support so Girkin (who was a Russian FSB officer) had to request army and Vagner’s support, that’s why Russia had to enter its army there, that’s how Boeing was shot in 2014 by Russians.
nonsense, they voted 97% in favor of independance.
MH17 was a false flag, as proven by the missile manufacturer experiments. stop trolling
no, this referendum was a fake one, most people flew the region during the war then there was an occupation army and terrorist who controlled and terrified everyone, I have a friend from Donetsk. It wasn’t a real referendum. Looks like you don’t know the situation.
I’m a separatist and a fun of smaller states but this referendum wasn’t accepted even by some Russian ultra-right organizations who went to fight for Ukraine.
“terrorist” BS It’s all on film
https://www.watchdogmediainstitute.com/p/blog-page.html
would those “Russian ultra-right organizations who went to fight for Ukraine” be the same “friends” that you mentioned who witnessed the murders in the Trade Union House first hand?
That explains a LOT.
https://dailysceptic.org/2022/03/16/ukraine-are-zelenskyys-hands-tied-in-peace-negotiations-by-the-countrys-neo-nazi-militia/#comment-755768
He is paid to troll, so won’t stop until the money runs out.
Yeah you are trolling and I’m not convinced you’re a ‘random Russian in UK’
да пошел ты нахуй уебок ебанный, сука сраная, хуесос недоношенный. Путинский жополиз недобитый, подстилка говносраная.
Are you convinced now? I’m not sure that google translate can translate it, so you need to find another Russian and ask them 🙂
Cute.
Isn’t cut and paste amazing………
Isn’t Google Translate a wonderful thing!
“Troll” is the familiar response when someone argues with a sceptic.
familiar to you I’m sure LOL
Calling people names whilst presenting no personal opinions is not ‘argument’ it’s called trolling.
As witnesses in climate circles, troll is usually an accusation sceptics suffer when disputing the 97%.
Yes 97% is hard for them to discount, but they are thick enough to keep on trying.
Or a paid troll like your not so good self.
You must be used to it.
He is a random American in the USA.
Of course!