One of the key justifications offered by Vladimir Putin for his invasion of Ukraine was that the country had come under the spell of Nazis and had to be “denazified”. We know of course neo-Nazi groups have been active in Ukraine and extreme right-wing parties have had some support in elections. But just a few percentage points. This is why at the start those claims sounded like typical hollow propaganda, a weak and flimsy justification for the invasion.
An article this week by Timofei Sergeitsev, translated from RIA Novosti, a Russian state-owned news agency, sheds new light on the proposed denazification and what it really means. Reading this, one is simply at loss for words.
The article is titled “What Russia Should Do with Ukraine” and the author starts by claiming the denazification of Ukraine is inevitable and has now moved to “the practical level”. He says a significant part of the population, and probably the majority, have become Nazis. He then goes on to lay out the plan. First, Nazis must be destroyed on the battlefield, and the author makes no distinction between the Ukrainian army and independent armed groups – all are Nazis. Next comes the punishment of “active Nazis”, and remember this includes the whole Ukrainian military, and the punishment should be “exemplary” and “demonstrable”; thinking about what that might mean sends a chill down one‘s spine.
But this is not all. Sergeitsev claims a large portion of the population are “passive Nazis”. What should be done with them then? The methods proposed are “re-education, which is achieved by ideological repression (suppression) of Nazi attitudes and severe censorship: not only in the political sphere, but necessarily also in the sphere of culture and education”. Even the country‘s name must be eradicated. This is expected to take a generation.
The article claims Ukraine is “impossible as a nation-state” for it will always descend into Nazism. Furthermore, denazification essentially means de-Europeanisation. In other words, Europeans in general are Nazis.
There is something about the kind of claims made in this article that reminds one of the propaganda against European Jews in the 19th and early 20th century – the smearing of an entire people via vague and crass generalisations. One can only wonder what would happen to those who would not yield to the “re-education” and “ideological repression”. We all know what happened to the Jews and other undesirable groups in Europe in the 1940s, to the Bosnian Muslims and the Tutsi of Rwanda in the early 1990s, just to name a few examples of where our ever-present inclination towards branding and exclusion, based on nationality, race, culture or beliefs, can lead.
Since the start of the war, I have been very sceptical of the more radical claims regarding Putin‘s intentions in Ukraine. But in the context of his speeches, the way the war has played out, and the fact this article has been published by a state-owned news agency, it is difficult not to conclude the views expressed are at least not contrary to the views of the authorities. And if so, events such as the destruction of Mariupol and the massacre in Bucha are easier to understand.
It can be seen from the comments on the original article that about two thirds of the commenters disapprove of Sergeitsev‘s article while a third approve. This might be an indication of the acceptance of the author‘s views. If a third of Russians approve of not only invading a neighbouring country, but eradicating it; ruining its culture, heritage and even its name, this tells us things are much worse than one would have suspected. I have sought reactions from friends in Russia and with ties to Russia in order to better understand how popular this view is. I will finish by quoting of one of them: “Russia is not a monolith. But yes, there are enough Russians who believe Ukraine doesn’t deserve to exist as a state.”
Thorsteinn Siglaugsson is an economist who lives in Iceland. Find him on his blog.
Discussion
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Plenty of western news commentary has talked about eradicating Russia and fixates on their alleged (and incorrect) original evil. Biden even said that his stated aim is regime change. Many people have made comments that killing / removing Putin is sensible. This has included Lindsey Graham, a very senior US Senator. Have Russian senior legislators made similar threats the other way? Facebook also allows explicit threats against Russians. One Russian article out of context says nothing and a mirror would be helpful.
What I suspect is happening is that Russian views are becoming more extreme now, as tends to happen in a war, and as tends to happen when you feel that the rest of the world wants to eradicate you.
A website called Drinzenreport is worth checking out. Has a video up that shows some very happy residents in Mariupol who are almost kissing Russian / Donetsk Republic soldiers now that they are there. One young woman is having selfies taken with them and another is showing her dog off to them. The emotion does not look fake. Patrick Lancaster is a journalist embedded with Donetsk forces in Mariupol and his videos tell a non western fake… Read more »
I read the article and immediately wondered why it had appeared in the Daily Cesspit, since it would serve only to infuriate the pro-Putin, anti-Western closet Nazi conspiracy theorists who constitute the great majority of the readership.
Reading the comments has certainly lived down to my expectations.
I suppose it might be useful for GCHQ as they work to identify all the dangerously twisted, amoral loons in our midst, assuming that they aren’t in Moscow or St Petersburg .
😂 Pro-Putin Anti-Western. Is that how binary and simple you think the world is? Dear oh dear.
How many of the contributors to this comments stream are Russian bots? Anyone want to hazard a guess?
The guess I would hazard is none at all. Contributors are regular and you can see that by clicking on them. Most contributors joined several months ago to discuss issues pertaining to Covid but as it turns out, they have opinions on other things too!
Do we have any hard evidence of a massacre in Bucha? Is it possible that it’s a White Helmet-style BBC trained and equipped propaganda exercise? One where the corpses in body bags miraculously come back to life and light a cigarette when the director of filming calls “okay, cut”?
This Nazi terminology is obviously aimed at winning over EU and US establishment types and woke academics (a pleonasm) all of whom also regard anyone to the right of Lenin as a Nazi, a xenophobic, misogynistic deplorable, a gun-toting redneck etc. Just like these smears provide cover for cruel and unjust treatment of dissident viewpoints in the West, so Putin obviously hopes his cruelty in Ukraine will find favor with policy makers and their court intellectuals in the West.
All the while the real nazis sit in the Kremlin.
Where would one start to expose the bollox here contained? From an Icelandic ‘dismal scientist’; OK, That’s probably enough.
I read this article with it’s tepid attempts to look like it’s parsing this issue of all issues, and wondered if the author knew how many statues and monuments there are around that country to Bandera et al – this is real. Deal with it. https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/
The writer of this article should watch the film clips I saw yesterday showing the treatment the Ukrainian army (Azov Battalion??) are meting out to civilians, not even Russian soldiers (though even then it would have been unforgivable). It was simply appalling, horrifying. I am not saying that Russians are angels, but please stop painting the Ukrainians as saints – they are not, many of them are monsters (but I am not talking about ordinary Ukrainian people for whom I feel wholehearted pity).
Why would the Ukrainian army mistreat its own civilians? A link to the films would be interesting.
Civilians with Russian sympathies. One of the justifications Vlad trotted out for the invasion in the first place.
I look forward to seeing the evidence.
Many of the civilian corpses had white arm bands denoting they were Russian sympathisers.
The Ukrainian neo-Nazis shot the civilians to blame it on the Russian soldiers but they forgot to take the arm bands off their victims.
The white armbands are worn by Russian soldiers to distinguish them in battle. Their use amongst civilians is debated. The mainstream position is that the Russians required citizens in Bucha to wear them. No doubt both sides will keep on asserting their view. However, if the Ukrainians were shooting their own citizens, they shot many of them prior to March 11th when the area was under Russian control (unless of course you think the satellite image was faked)..
The CIA and other western spooks have been training Ukraine in the dark arts for many years.
What is happening in Ukraine is exactly what happened in Syria with the CIA/UK trained White Helmets fabricating events to blame Russia and the Syrian government.
Civilians are killed by the neo-Nazis and deliberately left in the streets to blame it on Russia.
Empty hospitals are used by the neo-Nazis to shell the ethnic Russian civilians.
Russian diplomats tell the UN they have been told by Ukraine the hospital is empty.
Russia returns fire on the Ukrainian artillery to protect the ethnic Russian civilians.
In the aftermath it just so happens that a pregnant top Ukrainian media influencer is filmed coming out of the hospital by a top Ukrainian photographer (not by a first responder on their mobile phone).
Other crisis actors and corpses from elsewhere are also used many of whom may well have been civilian Russian sympathizers killed by the neo-Nazis.
Videos by the Ukrainian themselves including by the mayor after the Russian troops left show empty streets.
The videos showing bodies in the street are a set up to demonize Russia.
You… Read more »
You and most of the public believe all the lies and propaganda.
And you are one of the few that know the truth – which you found out how?
I have been studying modern world affairs for over 40 years and have a wealth of information channels which counter the government and msm narrative.
I have paid in the past subscriptions to independent journalists to go to conflict zones to report on the ground.
Now I’m retired I can’t afford the Patreon payments but can spend more time on research.
Here’s an indy American journalist based in DPR explaining why he’s wearing the white armband – IFF, as GHF suggested:
https://youtu.be/lRtLFT2sbBg?t=817
Yes. As I said the Russians use them to identify their own soldiers. The mainstream position is that citizens in Bucha were told to wear them in occupied territories but then as things got worse some of them were shot anyway. The fact that corpses were found wearing them doesn’t prove anything.
Why would Russian soldiers shoot Russian supporting Ukrainian citizens wearing white armbands?
The actual Russian position on Ukraine is no secret or mystery, though the original kremlin.ru site is blocked on western internet.
It can be read at the following link:
https://anti-empire.com/every-russian-soldier-is-required-to-read-this-2021-putin-article-on-ukraine/
As I see some readers questioning the authenticity of the translated text, I have had it confirmed by two Russian-speaking people I know that it is true to the original.
Give it a week and Zelinsky will be claiming he has proof of gas chambers and that Putin has been making human soap.
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/
https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/01/ukraine-bandera/4279897
https://askeptic.substack.com/p/the-msms-ukraine-amnesia?s=r
“The MSM’s Ukraine Neo-Nazi AmnesiaThe MSM apparently can’t take the time to Google their own past work.”
20+ links to past news stories about Nazis in Ukraine.
Not just Russian propaganda.
Imagine the response of these Ukraine virtue signallers if there were one – just a single one – openly admitted, card-carrying actual nazi carrying a gun in a public position in any US sphere country.
They’d be apoplectic about it.
Though sometimes the advocates of Ukrainian nationalism in the US sphere skate quite close:
https://twitter.com/RebelNewsOnline/status/1499448765043941377
Here’s the summary in the recent piece by Jacques Baud (former Swiss intelligence officer with extensive relevant experience):
“So, to compensate for the lack of soldiers, the Ukrainian government resorted to paramilitary militias. They are essentially composed of foreign mercenaries, often extreme right-wing militants. In 2020, they constituted about 40 percent of the Ukrainian forces and numbered about 102,000 men, according to Reuters. They were armed, financed and trained by the United States, Great Britain, Canada and France. There were more than 19 nationalities—including Swiss.
Western countries have thus clearly created and supported Ukrainian far-right militias. In October 2021, the Jerusalem Post sounded the alarm by denouncing the Centuria project. These militias had been operating in the Donbass since 2014, with Western support. Even if one can argue about the term “Nazi,” the fact remains that these militias are violent, convey a nauseating ideology and are virulently anti-Semitic. Their anti-Semitism is more cultural than political, which is why the term “Nazi” is not really appropriate. Their hatred of the Jew stems from the great famines of the 1920s and 1930s in the Ukraine, resulting from Stalin’s confiscation of crops to finance the modernization of the Red Army. This genocide—known in… Read more »
Good article, but Bozo 🤡 Fingal will, as usual, dismiss it as a conspiracy theory. Doubtless he’ll turn up with some more barefaced lies to attract triplejabbed to peddle his nonsense as well.
As laughably enjoyable as the absurd posts of the trolls and Russians here are, they need to up their game to beat the absurdity of official Kremlin propaganda.
For example, the Russians are the ones behaving like Nazis but the Kremlin paints Ukrainians as Nazis and the Kremlin image below of a Russian colonel’s being given a medal for ridding Ukraine of Nazis whilst wearing 2 over Nazi symbols of his sleeve, one a copy of the SS’s Death’s Head symbol.
We assume you found the picture on the internet……….
Is there a date appended anywhere for it?
Why no! What a surprise.
What difference would a date make? If it turned out to be an old photo would you expect us to think that the Russian colonel used to wear Nazi symbols, but since the invaded Ukraine he has repented and become an anti-Nazi?
As you have no provenance for the photograph, how do you know it hasn’t been photoshopped?
I assume you have a higher quality version of it because I can’t make out what the symbols are on the sleeves, nor can I see any rank insignia.
And since when were medal ceremonies conducted in the street during a war?
I suppose you’re going to tell me now that’s a common feature of Russian/Ukrainian/Nazi battle tactics.
Jeez…..Naïve is just too polite a term for you.
So now you have another rummage in your bag of conspiracy theories. it’s almost as if you weren’t interested in honest enquiry, just whatever random story you can use to confirm your priors.
I’m not saying it’s genuine, I really have no idea. But you’re not really a sceptic if you are determined that something can’t possibly be real.
LOL. You’re the one posting dodgy photographs claiming them to be something you have no evidence of. The very definition of a conspiracy theory.
I never claimed it couldn’t possibly be real bozo. Read what I have posted.
Like any sceptic of anything, I require supporting, hard evidence from multiple reliable sources before I believe anything, unless I have witnessed it with my own eyes. Even then I’ll question what I saw.
It’s my training, and I have asked you and the poster you are so determined to support, but who hasn’t put in an appearance himself to justify his claims, repeatedly for evidence but all you have come back with is bluster and BS.
Understandable really as you clearly have no clue what evidence is, how it works, how it’s verified and what can be considered reliable.
Now buzz off. You are wasting everyones time.
Oh, you mean like the Russian special forces (Spetsnaz) skull
😂 No one here is Russian! No reds under the bed, don’t be silly – you sound like Joseph McCarthy.
The “Nazis”openly state that they are dedicated to killing Russians and anyone who even speaks Russian – so what are the Russians supposed to do?
The referenced “RIA Novosti” article was “translated” by “garbonzo 871” and posted on Twitter.
An outfit called MEMRI has for decades been mistranslating Arab news stories so as to implicate “antiSemitic” bias/hate. Would it be a stretch to wonder if “garbonzo” is doing the same?
The entire premise of this piece is based on trusting “garbonzo”. This is a dissappointing read, not because it’s credible but because it suggests credulousness on the part os Daily Sceptic editors.
My suggestion for informing yourselves about Russian state sponsored news and analysis would be to read RT which they present in English. Oh, but your government won’t allow that. Sad that you accept these things.
As a nation, we clearly no longer believe in free speech or in trusting the population to make its own decisions.
So much for democracy.
So-called denazification of Ukraine to work like so-called denazification of Germany! Shocker!
How can anyone be surprised by that?
What is this fallacious relationship between Naziism and ‘extreme right wing’?
Extreme right wing is Libertarianism, about as far from Naziism as you could possibly get.
Naziism was a product of Hitlers socialist party, the National Socialist German Workers’ Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) or NSDAP.
Would there be many right wing Germans voting for a party called the National Socialist German Workers’ Party?
That would be like me voting for the National Socialist British Workers’ Party, and there are two chances of that. None, and fork all.
It’s insulting to the memory of parents and grandparents, from both sides of the political spectrum, who fought and died for the concept of Democracy, to be maligned in this manner by the casual use of the term ‘extreme right wing’ by ignorant journalists and commentators.
Extreme right wing is Libertarianism, about as far from Naziism as you could possibly get.
Nope. The term right-wing comes from the sitting order in the national assembly of revolutionary France and the right-wingers were the more conservative deputies who were in favour of keeping a constitutional monarchy.
As are Libertarians, ultra conservatives dedicated to a small state and personal freedom.
Libertarians are not ultra conservative. For a start conservatives are not dedicated to personal freedom. In the European context they are much more likely to be dedicated to restrictive sexual ethics, service of institutions and religious doctrines. Libertarians tend to be in favour of legalising use of cannabis and bodily autonomy. Remember, Hayek wrote an essay called “Why I Am Not A Conservative.”
You and Fingle both live in the land of fantasy.
Hayek’s seminal publication, The Road to Serfdom, was an examination of classic liberalism i.e. the original Liberal party:
of which Churchill was a member, being defined as somewhat right of Conservatism, which Hayek found petrified of change.
Your sneering dismissal of Libertarianism is predictably oafish, however, I’ll attempt to educate you. It is:
Remarkably similar to classic liberalism.
I would love to see where this is cited in a European manifesto.
In the 19th century in continental Europe, liberals (which would include libertarians) were opponents of the conservatives who desired to improve society by radical transformation, possibly including violent revolutions (eg, the German revolution of 1848). Which makes them classical left-wingers.
Firstly, I’m not talking about 19th Century Europe, I’m talking about the UK today.
Nor does you comment make it clear who supported violence, Liberals or Conservatives.
Violence is not a defining feature of a political position. The difference between the top heavy, over regulated, authoritarian state socialists desire, and freedom of the individual classic liberals desire, is a more important distinction than violence.
Would violence by the Chinese people against the already violent and oppressive Chinese communist (far left) regime be considered a politically defining position just because the citizens wanted personal liberty?
Of course not. It no more makes them right wing than violence makes communists left wing.
Violence may be a recurring feature of the left, it is not, however, a defining political position.
I am not dismissing libertarianism, let alone sneering at it. I’m just saying it’s not the same as conservatism. The clue is in “Why I Am Not A Conservative” by Hayek.
If you want a European manifesto of Conservatism, look at Eric Zemmour. He is a conservative, which is why Catholic men support him and nobody else. Bloody hell, none of this stuff is hard, why do you get everything wrong?
I didn’t say Libertarianism was the same as Conservatism, I used the term ultra conservative as a turn of phrase to illustrate they are beyond conventional conservative values.
Conservatives and libertarians support much the same thing in terms of smaller government and freedom of the individual than socialists do, but conservatives are not courageous enough to do anything about it because they are conservative by nature. Consequently they have been dragged more and more to the left.
Hayek was a classic liberal in that he pushed the boundaries of conservatism (of his time) out further in terms of individual freedom, small government, the rule of law etc. with a more adventurous nature to exploiting these values. Classic liberalism is the space now occupied by Libertarians who were once for complete freedom of the individual, no welfare state, no taxes and a government employed for two purposes – the original, to defend our shores, and the later, to maintain law and order.
Libertarians now, like liberals did in the past, accept that, for example, a NHS is desirable, but a much reformed one. They do accept the need for a welfare state, but as a safety net, not a hammock and… Read more »
Correct. Nazis fighting communists is the nationalist left fighting the internationalist left except if the internationalist left is Stalinist when it is nationalist in which case it is fighting itself. Don’t forget Hitler and Stalin had a non-aggression pact and colluded to wipe out Poland in 1939-40.
You people don’t deserve the name sceptics. Sceptics evaluate evidence and come to their own conclusions. The commentators here, given photos of shallow graves and satellite images of bodies in the street taken during the Russian occupation of Bucha, have decided that they murders were “blatantly” carried out by Ukrainians. If you really believe that there is a nice Cathedral you might want to visit in Salisbury to see the famous 123m spire.
You people are crackpots who are so obsessed by “narrative” that you couldn’t step outside your own biases if your lives depended on it. I bet half the people here even listen to the Delingpod.
I think you should have your fourth booster, mate, as you seem to be unable to grasp that people here are doing exactly that: ‘evaluating evidence and coming to their own conclusions’. because if they don’t, conclusions will be ready made for them. Like WMD in Iraq or multitude of other fake claims which in the end happened to cost enormous suffering to the humankind.
Yeah, yeah. The same stuff came from your ilk when people questioned the WMD in Iraq, and no doubt the Kuwaiti incubator babies as well.
You clearly don’t understand what “sceptic” even means. It certainly doesn’t mean assuming that what you are told by authority is gospel, as you are doing over these remarkably convenient, manipulative atrocity stories.
If your response to photos of dead bodies in the street is that they are “convenient” you need to spend less time online. The atrocities are real, as is the evidence. May God rest their souls.
Russia has a track record of killing people and then producing outlandish lies. Dawn Sturgess died after picking up discarded nerve agent in Salisbury. The Russian suspects thought it was clever to concoct a shaggy dog story about visiting the Cathedral. The idea that the massacre in Buchal was perpetrated by Ukrainian propagandists is no more believable. Please stop disgracing yourself.
“If your response to photos of dead bodies in the street is that they are “convenient” you need to spend less time online. The atrocities are real, as is the evidence. May God rest their souls.“
On the contrary, if your response to a few dead bodies in a war is so disproportionate, then you need to get out into the real world more and learn to control your feelings when people are using them to manipulate you.
You know nothing about these bodies beyond what has been produced for you by the people who seek to use them to manipulate your view of the war. Yet you are convinced that they must be evidence of what those people claim them to be.
That is the “opposite of sceptic”, and illustrates precisely why this kind of shroud-waving emotional manipulation is so important to states in wartime and to those who seek to promote confrontation and war. Despite clear evidence that lies about such things have been used in the past (eg Kuwaiti incubator babies), and despite the fact that it makes much more sense for the US side to be lying to you about them than for the supposed perpetrators… Read more »
One dead body in the street would be enough to condemn whoever left it there, whether it provokes feelings or not. But it’s not just a few bodies, is it? Thousands of people have been killed during this senseless Russian invasion.
You seem to be obsessed with being manipulated. Maybe a little less thought for yourself and a bit more for, say, the people killed by a Russian missile while sheltering in a theatre in Mariupol might be in order?
“One dead body in the street would be enough to condemn whoever left it there,”
Don’t be so childish. You clearly don’t apply that to the Ukrainian side, so why pretend it’s what you believe? In war, people die. Lots of them. And most of those who kill them and “leave their bodies in the street” are not condemnable, they’re just soldiers fighting a war..
To determine if particular cases are condemnable is what military courts do. But regardless, they do not affect the wider causes at stake in the war.
“But it’s not just a few bodies, is it? Thousands of people have been killed during this senseless Russian invasion.”
Nice shift. We were talking about Bucha, which was “a few bodies” in the context of a war in which ultimately tens of thousands at least will undoubtedly die. If you want to shift the topic to the wider war then do so honestly, without trying to conflate the two.
As for whether it’s “senseless”, that’s your opinion, and highly unlikely to be true. It’s not hard to see the reasons for his war, both in the motives for the US, EU and Ukrainian groups that pushed against Russia… Read more »
I do apply it to the Ukrainian side, as it happens. I think that they are wrong to parade prisoners. I don’t doubt that they are committing war crimes as well, I hope those responsible are prosecuted. I think the Azov brigade is disgusting.
But what you are fundamentally overlooking is that Ukraine is acting in self defence and Russia is the aggressor. The Ukrainians are quite entitled to repel the invasion. I’m delighted when they blow up a Russian tank, good for them. Nobody should agonise about the death of a single invader. Ukraine is imperfect, sure, but they are entitled to join whichever international organisation they want, and it’s none of Russia’s damn business. The war is unjustifiable, and the thousands that are dying are all Russia’s fault.
“I do apply it to the Ukrainian side, as it happens. I think that they are wrong to parade prisoners. I don’t doubt that they are committing war crimes as well, I hope those responsible are prosecuted. I think the Azov brigade is disgusting.”
OK, fair enough.
“But what you are fundamentally overlooking is that Ukraine is acting in self defence and Russia is the aggressor. The Ukrainians are quite entitled to repel the invasion. I’m delighted when they blow up a Russian tank, good for them. Nobody should agonise about the death of a single invader. Ukraine is imperfect, sure, but they are entitled to join whichever international organisation they want, and it’s none of Russia’s damn business. The war is unjustifiable, and the thousands that are dying are all Russia’s fault.”
That’s a dangerously simplistic understanding of the situation imo.
Evidently, we disagree, which is (or should be) fine.
Clearly nether of us is a pacifist, which means that issue can be dismissed.
The argument that war should not be a tool of state policy and should be reserved for necessary defence, as suggested by the original understanding of the UN Charter, is a much more respectable… Read more »
Russia clearly believed
Putin is not Russia. We cannot say with any certainty at all what Russia clearly believes, as it is clearly an undemocratic state run by a gangster class who enrich themselves massively. Given Putin’s self-serving a-historic essay about Ukraine’s place in the Lithuanian Commonwealth, I think we can discount any rational defence of what they believe.
I actually agree with you about US (and UK) behaviour since the 90s. Given the disastrous invasions of Iraq and Libya, and to a lesser extent Kosovo, it is totally reasonable to be wary of NATO. But I would respond with two points:
Western democracies correct their mistakes more effectively than authoritarian regimes like Russia. Robin Cook defied Tony Blair in parliament, while Putin’s cronies fawned over him from the other side of the room. It is illegal to mention the war in Moscow, but a million people protested the Iraq War. Those who opposed it were vindicated and those who supported it are out of power. Russia was wrong to assume that NATO would threaten Russia militarily, probably because of “mirroring” The US is really a minor player in this conflict. The countries that really want to intervene militarily are… Read more »
“I think we can discount any rational defence of what they believe.“
This is just self-serving guff. The facts remain as I set them out, and the tendency to try to personalise rival nations and to impute irrationality to them rather than face up to unpleasant realities is one that ought to be resisted.
Your idea of Russia versus “the West” is grossly distorted – Russia is not the quasi-dictatorship that it is painted as in our media and by the enemies of the Russian government, and “the West” is not the bastion of freedom and free speech it claims to be. There is no valid parallel between the situation wrt Russia and the Cold War.
Russia and the US and its satellite states are managed democracies -opposition is allowed, but only within limits (try setting up an openly racist or “homophobic” political party in this country, for instance), and speech is allowed within limits. The limits tend to be broader in the US sphere, although even that has faded in the covid era.
If you offend powerful insider people in either Russia or the US sphere, you find yourself harassed, silenced and the legal system abused against you (Assange,… Read more »
This is complete garbage. There is a very real difference in kind between the US and Russia. The treatment of Alexei Navalny, with his poisoning, prosecution by Micky Mouse courts and barbaric prison conditions is a different level of treatment altogether than anything Julian Assange – who holed himself up in an embassy – received. It’s just preposterous to claim any kind of equivalence.
Putin and his cronies are fundamentally corrupt, and everything about them is a lie. They are not the Russian nation, they must be rejected utterly. Your refusal to see this is lamentable, and this utter whopper:
is blown to pieces by his need to imprison his opponents and arrest anyone who protests his war.
Alexei Navalny couldn’t possibly have embezzled the money he was convicted of. It just had to be a Mickey Mouse court, according to the BBC and the Guardian, neither of which has ever told porkies in the past.
Of course they are, they colluded with Donald Trump.
Oh wait!……..
And your evidence for this is? BBC and legacy media excluded of course.
You cam believe what you like about Navalny (an outsider figure, rather like Tommy Robinson here, but taller and better looking, with much better doubtless CIA-funded PR), but regardless it merely confirms what I said. The differences are of degree not of nature. (Anything involving novichok is instantly hugely suspect, given the absurd accusations made by the same people who made up the Russiagate lies).
“is blown to pieces by his need to imprison his opponents and arrest anyone who protests his war.”
Putin has plenty of opponents who have never been imprisoned, and the idea of punishing protesters when your country is in a serious war is hardly unique to Russia.
Don’t believe everything you read about Russia and Putin, written by and large by its and his enemies.
“Putin and his cronies are fundamentally corrupt, and everything about them is a lie.”
Certainly true about the British “Conservative” and Labour Party hierarchies, as we’ve just had clearly establshed for us by the colossal dishonesty, corruption and incompetence of the covid disaster.
Navalny was poisoned. Boris Nemtsov was murdered. Dozens of Putin’s opponents have met a violent demise. That you try and equivocate shabby political lying by the Tories with political violence by Putin is fundamentally disgusting.
There are lots of nasty actors in Russian politics, even without the US sphere bad actors interfering, and there were far more in the 1990s and the early Putin years, when it was pretty much the “wild east”.
Inevitably everything possible has been attributed to Putin by his enemies, that doesn’t mean they have to be believed.
And as I noted, anything supposedly involving novichok is inherently highly suspect.
“That you try and equivocate shabby political lying by the Tories with political violence by Putin is fundamentally disgusting.“
I didn’t, of course. I pointed out that the “Conservative” and Labour Parties are fundamentally corrupt, and everything about them is a lie. Something, as I noted, hardly open to dispute after the past two years.
Isn’t it 50 or so of the Clinton’s close associates who have suicided themselves now?
I guess you’re daft enough to believe that because the BBC doesn’t report on any Russians murdered by British or American agents, it doesn’t happen?
Just because this is a popular right wing conspiracy theory, that doesn’t mean it rates a spot in real media.
Real media like …..?
The BBC and the Guardian………
There you go with your ‘conspiracy theory’ dismissal again.
Funny how the “lockdowns don’t work” conspiracy theory turned out to be true. The conspirators who claimed Zero Covid was a dream turned out to be right. The Hunter Biden laptop conspirators were right as well. The conspiracy that Trump Russia-gate was a lie, turned out to be true, there was no Trump Russia collusion.
Then, of course, the conspiracy that there were no WMD’s in Iraq. Boy, did that one bomb – or not.
LOL, you really are a 🤡
Lockdown debate isn’t a conspiracy, it’s a legitimate argument that governments everywhere have wrestled with.
Zero covid was an effective strategy for some countries in the first year but not now, with Omicron.
Trump’s life is so bizarre, we haven’t seen the last of that.
Whereas the stuff you write is pure conspiracy theory.
Scientists across the world agree lockdowns were useless. But when anyone suggested it two years ago morons like you scweamed ‘conspiracy theory’.
Sajid Javid is on record stating Zero Covid was a disaster. Not it was a disaster in the first year. But when anyone suggested zero covid was nonsense, morons like you scweamed ‘conspiracy theory’.
Trump’s life is bizarre? But Biden the child sniffer, with the crackhead son who includes “The Big Guy” on dodgy Chinese and Ukrainian business deals is completely normal?
Your judgement and moral compass are way off kilter.
The only argument you ever fall back on is “Conspiracy Theory”. It’s all you have Bozo 🤡
Didn’t Zelenskyy imprison his defeated rival in the Presidential election? Didn’t he shut down the media supporting the opposition party? Or are they Russian lies? Russia was being backed into a corner by NATO and the US. It’s hard to see a realistic alternative to action after many attempts to avoid it. As far as right, left, democratic, socialist labels are concerned, they are just that. Any country calling itself ‘Democratic’ is almost certainly the exact opposite (DPRK). Any country claiming it’s ruling party is of the people (PAP in Singapore), is usually a clandestine dictatorship. Labels are cheap and disposable. It’s actuality that matters.
I have a Scottish friend who lives in the city of Ufa in Russia. Has done so since the wall came down.
He tells me it’s a far less autocratic country than the UK or the USA. People are largely left to their own devices. Income tax is 14% and a basic health service is. included. Private health care is inexpensive.
Road, rail and air transport are good and employment high in Ufa which is a city with, from memory, five universities. There are Christian Churches, Synagogs, Mosques and almost every other religious places of worship in the city and there hasn’t been a religious confrontation in 400 years.
Crime is virtually unknown as the Police are unaffected by woke policies, besides, committing crime when it’s -20º isn’t too clever an idea.
Having suffered for so long under the USSR, Russians are fiercely defensive of their freedoms and now view the west with distain as we surrender more and more of them every day.
This is the Russia you condescendingly sneer at.
Wow, stuff you have heard from a friend who lives 1200km from Moscow. I’m convinced.
I am going to Scotland next week for the first time, I really hope they are not all like you. It would be a long stay if they know as little about politics, history, geography and science as you do.
Wow, stuff you hear from someone you don’t know in Ukraine, 1,600Km from Moscow. I’m not convinced. 🤣
Now that’s just disappointing. It’s no fun engaging with someone if all they can come up with is a clumsy dig about Scotland.
However, it does illustrate you are a master of jumping to conclusions, not that you haven’t already.
I’m not Scottish. Clown…….🤡
Did you get this from the same place you learned about the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact?
A world of your own…
LOL, clumsy or what?
You referred to the non aggression pact between the Nazi’s and the Russians as between Hitler and Stalin.
The official term is the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, it’s easy for you to Google. I didn’t have to though as I have a reasonable grasp of history. I did have to seek out the precise dates which you had no clue about, nor the fact Hitler killed 24 million Russians.
But I suppose you are blissful in your ignorance.
This is the best kind of anecdotal evidence about countries that are designated enemy states for our elites, because you cannot trust anything in our media about them. Especially, it’s very unwise to believe anything said about them by expats from those countries, because they tend to be political dissidents who will say anything they can to the discredit of the home government they have run away from, hate and want to see overthrown.
A lot of the warmongering pressure in the US sphere, especially amongst US neocons, originates with expat political dissidents.
My friend is no political dissident, he’s a commercial journalist.
A good source of general info.
I have first hand reports from native Russians and from an Englishman who was there immediately before the current war. These align pretty accurately with what you say.
LOL…..The evidence for all this is? The BBC? 🤣
Strange we don’t see any evidence of that on the BBC, dontchathink?
Oh how the BBC cheered when Iraq was invaded over WMD’s.
Ooops……..
I refer you again to Patrick Lancaster for an inside view of Mariupol.
No point, he won’t look. He can’t produce evidence of his own claims far less seek to look at evidence from anyone else.
Lancaster is employed by Russia and has been for years.
Your evidence for that is what?
Lancaster lives in Ukraine for eight years, as a Russian employee, and sticks around when the Russians invade, and is still wandering the streets interviewing Ukrainian’s who evidently hate Russians.
Don’t you ever think anything through before you post it Bozo 🤡?
If you’re unobservant enough not to notice that in many (all I have seen) of the photographs of ‘corpses’ there is not a drop of blood anywhere, not on the bodies or the ground, you need a new glasses prescription and be careful you don’t bury your dog when its sleeping.
Tony Blair springs immediately to mind.
Oh please, let’s not start futile “the twin towers didn’t fall down correctly” style pseudo-investigations. Those bodies were lying in the street for days, in the rain. It’s not clever to think up crackpot gotchas that not even the Russians are using.
There aren’t twin towers in Ukraine are there?
And your evidence for this is?
They would have been attacked by wildlife and probably hungry dogs had they been lying there for days. But not a sign, no facial injuries or empty eye sockets where the eyes were and carrion birds favour first.
Try looking for evidence to refute your immediate, knee jerk hypothesis, it’s what scientists do.
As ever, your view relies on mass collaboration by journalists and witnesses – and you work this out this via the tv and video.
It’s the same crap going back to 9/11 and the ‘actors’ on the planes. So boring.
Where, in that post, did I mention journalists or witnesses?
Making it all up again Fingal.
Where have I ever mentioned 9/11?
Making it all up again Fingal.
You are a compulsive liar. Just can’t help yourself.
Keep up, Scotty. The journalists and witnesses who reported the things you say aren’t there.
What things do I “say”?
I make no claims about either side in this war, I simply punch holes in the ridiculous and hysterical, evidence free claims you make.
It’s like dealing with a child.
Sigh.
Many witnesses plus journalists have given evidence of Russian brutality in the recaptured areas.
You say it didn’t happen.
On what basis?
Fine, show us the evidence. Who were the journalists and what organisations were they working for?
As usual though, you won’t produce any evidence.
Can you name one independent journalist who is reporting from the area who has unrestricted access to members of the public?
Why are you asking this? I’m saying that the BBC etc are reporting from the area. Large numbers of people have been interviewed by various channels. It’s LukewarmScotty who claims he has independent experts up his sleeve.
He trusts everything some bloke he finds on the internet says, but nothing that professional news outlets provide.
Somehow, they’re all part of a conspiracy.
He also says he’s not a conspiracy theory guy.
Ooops.
Lying once again Bozo 🤡
I didn’t say “independent experts”. I said independent journalists Bozo 🤡
Correct, for the second time in your life Bozo 🤡. I trust nothing from the lying BBC (do you work for them) nor from the legacy media, almost every one of which celebrated and wet themselves at the announcement of WMD’s in Iraq. No investigation, no searching interviews, they just bought the liar Blair’s (perhaps you work for him) story and languished in their righteousness. Never an apology offered from any of them for lying to the public.
You bandy around the term conspiracy Bozo 🤡, not me. I just call them as they are, compulsive liars, just like you Bozo 🤡.
I have never said “it” didn’t happen Bozo 🤡
You are caught lying, again Bozo 🤡
I examine the evidence available, and ask the questions your tiny mind is to small to formulate Bozo 🤡
You just wander around like a 🤡 believing everything our known lying government and media feeds to you.
Partygate…..another ‘conspiracy theory’ of yours Bozo, until the MET handed out fines to ministers involved. I bet you said the Hancock grope and the Ferguson shag were conspiracy theories until the evidence was presented.
But suddenly, our government has turned over a new leaf and come over all honest.
If you weren’t so stupid you’d be dangerous.
If you would care to view reports from an independent journalist who filmed Russian speaking residents in the Russian controlled part of Mariupol you will hear about the Azov snipers picking off civilians in the street, amongst other unpleasant activities.
Patrick Lancaster is an English journalist who has lived in Ukraine for some years. He brings some balance to the reporting. An open minded would think carefully about what he presents.
Actually he’s American and is funded by Russia
See my response below Bozo 🤡
Whereas you are what, just gullible?
Having just read through the comments here I have come to the conclusion that the Covid Experience has unhinged many of us.
Neither side of this war is saintly, but if I put myself in the shoes of the poor residents of Ukraine, the only conclusion I can come to is that their lives are being ruined by Russian aggression and inhumanity. There is a long history of Russian brutality, which many of us have seen in our lifetimes more than once. Ukrainians have a right to self determination and to defend themselves and their country.
Fundamentally, governments on both sides are playing politics with peoples’ lives and there can be no justification for that, ever.
What about the inhabitants of the majority Russian oblasts in the East of the country who have experienced their own government shelling their neighbourhoods for the past 8 years, causing thousands of deaths and injuries. Do you think, perhaps, for them, the arrival of the Russians might be a blessed relief?
As you said, neither side of this war is saintly.
If the arrival of Russians were a relief, why do you suppose that citizens of Mariupol, Kharkov and Sievierodonetsk are resisting it so strenuously? It appears that the Russian army were expecting to be welcomed in these places. Judging by the reaction of Ukrainians in this invasion, the effects of fighting since 2014 between Russian-backed separatists and the Ukrainian army is vastly exaggerated.
have you seen a single non propaganda video from Mariupol of which there are many? Not all of them, but some people do say that they welcome Russians and DNR LNR armies. And I think it’s visible even from the western MSM that if a civilian collaborates with the Russians, the consequences will be dire so people are understandably scared. so, even if there is some support, people are afraid to show it.
I try to avoid all videos, the emotional manipulation is chronic. I also try to avoid Zelensky -he is fighting for his country so I don’t blame him but he wants to play on our emotions as well. I try to base my opinion on broad facts and hard evidence like satellite images. The fact is that the resistance to Russia, even in Russian-speaking areas, has been demonstrably fierce. The only conclusion is that the Ukrainian demos is real, and in no way welcomes the Russian invasion.
By the way, it is entirely legitimate to deal harshly with collaborators in wartime. Treason is a very, very serious offence. The Ukrainian authorities are the legitimate ones, so they should deal out dire consequences.
I think you misspelled here, you should have said: ‘I try to avoid videos, which challenge my opinions’. and your opinions, like ‘Zelensky is fighting for his country’ and others, are just exactly that – your opinions, which can be challenged very easily.
Now we’re getting somewhere.
Post some links to satellite images. That’s good evidence.
Collaborators are prisoners of war, just like any others and their treatment is bound by the Geneva Convention.
It is not “entirely legitimate to deal harshly” with collaborators, unless you conform to Nazi standards. Do you?
With the barrel of a gun or through the courts?
“If the arrival of Russians were a relief, why do you suppose that citizens of Mariupol, Kharkov and Sievierodonetsk are resisting it so strenuously?”
Eh? How have you come to have an understanding of the situation in Mariupol that is so diametrically opposed to reality?
(No need to answer that, as with covid the answer is that you have been worked on by professionals with unlimited budgets and access to media and social media controls).
Mariupol was always inclined to go with the separatists. It was beaten into submission in 2014 by Azov nazis and thugs paid by the local oligarch, and has essentially been under occupation by Azov ever since.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mariupol_(2014)
It’s the Azov fanatics who have been “strenuously resisting” liberation of the city.
The idea that there is some secret knowledge that only initiates like you know is a silly fallacy, a kind of gnosticism.
In reality the Azov brigade is a nasty, brutish and small organisation. It would be better if it didn’t exist but it is nowhere near the decisive force you are making out. A thousand cos-playing Nazis are not enough to beat a city in to submission.
You may say that Mariupol was inclined to go with the separatists, but use your own eyes, my friend. 40-something days of resistance must tell you the opposite.
“The idea that there is some secret knowledge that only initiates like you know is a silly fallacy, a kind of gnosticism.”
This is a bizarre non sequitur.
I don’t think it’s even particularly controversial about Mariupol, like most of Donetsk, tending to the separatist side, or about its occupation by Azov.
The estimates I’ve seen of regime forces in Mariupol seem to be at least 14k, NATO-trained and equipped and prepared for years. Plenty to hold it down and to make a fortified built up area very hard to storm.
You seem to have a rather bizarre fantasy about volunter local citizen soldiers in Mariupol fighting DPR and Russian invaders for every street. That’s just complete fantasy.
Mariupol is not Kiev.
“Regime?” Which regime is this? The elected government of Ukraine surely has its flaws, but it is not a regime.
regime
/reɪˈʒiːm/
noun
Game, set and match on that one, Mark
It tells me that the damage I have seen and the number of civilian casualties is nowhere near as high as I would have expected from an onslaught as vicious as has been claimed.
Don’t confuse him with logic. Russia could have flattened every city in Ukraine in a matter of days. It’s the second most powerful armed force in the world.
Documentary film “Donbass 2016” – understand why Donetsk and Luhansk do not want to belong to Ukraine – The Rio Times
Both Mariupol Frontlines Under Fire Special Report. Russia – Ukraine War
Are they? How do you know this?
What reactions? Where have you seen these reactions?
Come on Scotty, catch up. Even the Russians agree Mariupol has been flattened. It’s just that they say it was the defenders that did it.
The Russians have peculiar ideas of how to fight a war, as we have discovered.
As I’ve noticed you do quite often, you choose to answer a different point, not made by the person you are supposedly replying to.
Nobody disputes that there has been fierce fighting in Mariupol. The point is that the fighting was with Azov fanatics and some respectable Ukrainian military forces, not with any kind of local citizen militia.
Mariupol is in the part of the Ukraine most sympathetic to the Russians, and by and large has seen itself as under Azov occupation. A view seemingly shared by the Azov occupiers, it appears.
He’s a far left socialist. Incapable of answering direct questions, attempts to deflect the issue, makes nonsense up, refuses to acknowledge fact or produce any evidence, and often resorts to lying.
So he is, of course, correct in everything he says, in his own little mind.
Funny that. Independent reporters from within Mariupol are videoing standing buildings.
They are also interviewing witnesses who tell him the aggressors are largely Ukranian.
There’s little point in mentioning this your cognitive dissonance won’t allow it, but ‘Duck Duck Go’ the name Patrick Lancaster relative to Ukraine. A US journalist who has lived there since 2014.
What independent reporters? I hope you don’t mean Russians.
What’s your source?
I gave you it in my post Bozo 🤡. Do some work! It’s not even difficult FFS!
I do disapprove of these kinds of things, no question. But if Russian minorities were really so happy to see Russian soldiers, there would have been massive coverage of the events and the Russians really wouldn’t be blasting the cities to smithereens. I accept it can be hard to tell what’s really going on but the Russians don’t seem all that welcome to me.
In all likelihood Putin has just crushed any chance of reconciliation here – it may well be that Russian speakers end up identifying more as Ukrainians than Russians after this. That’s human nature for you.
By who? The BBC and the compliant western media? Are you having a laugh?
Your evidence for this derives from where? The BBC doesn’t count nor does the rest of the legacy media. They have lied to us all for decades.
How on earth would you know this?
Having been systematically attacked since 2014 by Ukrainian forces I somehow doubt those in the Donbas will be speaking Ukrainian any time soon voluntarily. Meanwhile, not a squeak from the west or their compliant media for eight years.
‘their lives are being ruined by Russian aggression and inhumanity’. are you sure that Ukrainian lives are being ruined by Russian aggression only? There are many videos where civilians say (if translation is to be believed of course) that Ukrainian military is not only using them as a human shield, but targeting and killing them directly? Search Patrick Lancaster on YT.
W/o denying of course that civilians die from Russian shelling of course.
Videos are designed to be emotive and manipulate. It is almost impossible to verify the content and so I don’t watch them. I gather facts from various sources. If the Russians were so welcome and nice, whole communities of nuns in the east wouldn’t be upping sticks and moving west, would they? One community near the border (Kharkiv) initially wanted to stay but after reports of rapes and brutality plus shelling decided to leave. If the Russians were so upstanding they wouldn’t have done that.
And your source for this is?
are videos emotive and manipulative only on one side? is it almost impossible to verify content if it questions western MSM narrative or in general?
“Neither side of this war is saintly, but if I put myself in the shoes of the poor residents of Ukraine, the only conclusion I can come to“
Obviously, if you put yourself in the shoes of one side, you will tend to sympathise with their position. Try wearing the shoes of a Russia speaker in the eastern Ukraine who doesn’t like the western Ukrainian ultranationalists telling him his own language has second class status in his own country:
Documentary film “Donbass 2016” – understand why Donetsk and Luhansk do not want to belong to Ukraine – The Rio Times
“Fundamentally, governments on both sides are playing politics with peoples’ lives and there can be no justification for that, ever.“
Indeed they are, but the prime movers, as usual, are the most powerful. In this case, the world’s only superpower (at the time most of the damage was done, and the scene was set for today’s denouement):
Why is Ukraine the West’s Fault? Featuring John Mearsheimer
I agree with you on the Russian language issue, completely wrong but to invade an entire country for the sake of small communities in one area is rather Hitleresque. Putin could have chosen a less confrontational approach but didn’t and he will pay the price, along with all the people of Ukraine, sadly.
“Putin” (read: Russia) has been adopting the “less confrontational approach” for 8 years, and it hasn’t worked. Most recently his call for a change to the NATO-isation policy in the Ukraine was met with contemptuous derision by the US sphere.
As for his reasons for not just going in to defend the independent republics, he set that out in some detail and it made sense. He pointed out that doing so would leave the huge NATO-armed and trained Ukrainian military intact to keep attacking over the border, as they have been doing for the past 8 years.
The Russians evidently chose instead a more extensive operation to destroy the Ukrainian capacity for military aggression, and to set back the ongoing NATO-isation.
The argument he set out was consistent and sensible, whether you agree with it or not. Personally, I think he was probably correct that if they were going to intervened then this kind of operation makes more sense than a limited one confined to the border areas.
Only time will tell if it was wise or not. though the Russians clearly view it as necessary, regardless, and with some justice.
There are no independent republics, nobody acknowledges them, stop talking about them as if they are a thing. They are Ukrainian territory seized during the invasion of Crimea, where Putin fomented trouble using paramilitaries. You are expecting us to forget Grozny, Georgia, Aleppo and Crimea and pretend that Putin has been reasonable.
“There are no independent republics, nobody acknowledges them, stop talking about them as if they are a thing“
Doesn’t matter who “acknowledges” them. They exist.
“They are Ukrainian territory seized during the invasion of Crimea, where Putin fomented trouble using paramilitaries“
The usual one sided view. The fact is that there was a genuine division in the Ukraine as a result of the forceful overthrow of its government, and significant parts of the country were not prepared to accept the new regime, and seceded. They did so successfully, with Russian assistance, albeit losing parts of their territory to the Ukrainian regime forces, significantly including Azov nazis and oligarch-funded thugs.
“You are expecting us to forget Grozny, Georgia, Aleppo and Crimea and pretend that Putin has been reasonable.”
Grozny and Aleppo were fights against the same kinds of islamist fanatics that we have been fighting in Afghanistan.
Georgia picked a fight with Russia because they thought NATO had their backs after having NATO membership dangled in front of them, and found out the hard way (as the Ukraine is finding out) that they were wrong. The blame for that rests with US aggressive pushing of NATO and Georgian stupidity.
Georgia started war with Russia: EU-backed report
The Crimea was a direct response to the aggressive US policy in the Ukraine and the nationalist overthrow of the Ukrainian government (too impatient to wait for the elections due a few moths later), and it’s clear that Crimea is far better as part of Russia on almost every count – popular support, history, geostrategic stability.
No sign of any unreasonableness in any of those on Putin’s part, unless you are some kind of pacifist. Which you evidently aren’t.
Here you go drongo.
Running a proxy war in the Donbass while continuing to occupy Crimea hardly qualifies as ‘non confrontational’.
But America and Europe aren’t running a proxy war against Russia in Ukraine?
LOL. You need to think a bit more before posting your idiotic comments.
Putin has never made any secret of his offer to defend the Russian speaking people of the Donbas their right to their language and culture against incursion by the rest of Ukraine.
Ukraine ignored Putin and conducted a guerrilla war in the Donbas, so he armed his people. They didn’t need to use those arms.
The incursions didn’t stop over eight years so, concurrent with the EU NATO’s hostile approach, he invaded the country.
Eight years of Ukrainian aggression in the Donbas and not a peep from the western media, tells you all you need to know.
It would seem your recent history is no better than your WW2 knowledge.
The Donbass revolt was created by Putin and supplied by Putin. The Russian military have directly involved themselves in the fighting.
Meanwhile in Chechnya Putin took the exact opposite approach. He resisted a popular independence revolt and turned the country into.a hellhole, until they gave up.
Putin has been negotiating since at least 2014.
But the people of the Donbass don’t have the right to self determination? Cherry picking at best.
What about the people of Chechnya?
Does anyone have that video of Zelenksy when he was doing his Standup comedy and joking about how many Nazis there are in Ukraine?
It was on an episode on UK Column News a few weeks back, can’t seem to find it on Youtube.
Obviously I was too late.
This thread should be aborted.
Come on people, surely you can spot a 77 troll.
Troll Alert
Fingal is on manoeuvres. Please ignore.
you need to do a second alert for triplejabbed HP
I’ve reached the point where I don’t believe any one single source of information anymore regarding this war in Ukraine – neither one side or the other wins my support because neither seems convincing to me – it all seems to be endless made-up lies and propaganda from just about everyone involved and basically you just choose whose lies are most convincing to you personally. For example on the one hand I was reading about how Russian soldiers were killing innocent civilians before they left the places they’d occupied which is a possibility and I don’t deny it could be true I suppose, but then on the other hand I read that these dead civilians were actually shot by Ukrainian soldiers who entered these places after the Russians had left who then began rounding up anyone who was singled out as collaborating with the occupying Russian forces and shot them as traitors … which also sounds plausible to me too.
If you ask me – both sides and western governments are all as bad as one another and refusing to take sides one way or the other would be the best way forward out of this mess.
That is a sensible approach and you have the right idea.
I would like to add that while both sides make different claims, one version is closer to the truth than the other.
Yesterday, Russia requested an urgent meeting at the UN Security Council to investigate what has taken place in Bucha, and this meeting and investigation was blocked by a vote from…… the UK.
The aphorism “truth is the first casualty of war” is a familiar cliche for good reason.
There are three important points here.
First, we shouldn’t need to try to work out which side is telling the truth, because we are (or should be) neutrals here. That our rulers are not neutral explains the heavy propaganda campaign from the same people, by and large, who tried to convince us to panic over covid, worship BLM and succumb to climate alarmism.
As you say, refusing to take one side or the other would be the correct approach, but our elites will not allow this. Accordingly, it is necessary to defend ourselves against the ongoing manipulation into taking the side supported by our elites.
Second, it should not be important on the strategic level who is responsible for this or that atrocity. Atrocities happen in war on all sides. Those who want to highlight particular atrocities are invariably trying to manipulate you emotionally to get you to adhere the side they favour. This is a universal rule of human conflict and politics. Pay no attention to atrocity stories if you wish to retain the primacy of reason for yourself.
And you have to… Read more »
And the massive problem, inherent in what you rightly describe, is that none of us can trust the MSM after the last 2 years of in some cases, downright lying, and mostly just propaganda. So who do you believe? I know I certainly wouldn’t know where to begin, but I am most certainly not going to believe anything that politicians say I should support.
I can’t entirely disagree with you however, I will point out that Russia is the second most powerful armed force in the world. Were its objectives to cause civilian casualties it could have killed millions by now.
This is war and everything is a possibility, and for others to dismiss out of hand the real possibility that Ukrainian soldiers might murder their own civilian population for the sake of PR mileage is not just naïve, it’s historically ignorant as it’s been perpetrated innumerable times in the past.
What can we believe? Well, we are aware that Ukrainian forces have been conducting a war in the Donbas, but not a peep from western politicians or the media.
As soon as Russia decides to react to EU and NATO hostility and clean up the Donbas at the same time, the media are now catastrophizing about WW3, a nuclear war with Russia, fuel shortages (despite Russia never shutting off gas supplies to the west during the entire cold war) food shortages, western inflation and petrol prices in the US. Have I missed anything?
The fact is it took a war between Germany, the UK and the rest of Europe, Russia, the USA and… Read more »
Speaking of “re-education camps”, can we send some of our political and media class over as well?
You see, over the last few years they’ve taken mentally ill people that think they’re born into the bodies of the opposite sex and forced the rest of our societies to conform to those delusions. That’s just one example. When that wasn’t enough they systematically terrorised their populations for 2 years and forced them to undergo human genetic modification.
We used to commit people like this to lunatic asylums but that’s just not PC anymore, so maybe re-education is the last and only option.
Anyone that has spent any time looking into governments and propaganda will understand that false claims regarding war time atrocities are common place.
Some of the most important lies from WW2 are still protected to this day. Indeed in the UK all the hate speech laws and dis/mis information laws are being introduced as a way of preventing too many people discussing (amongst other things) the Holocaust in ways not approved of by those in power.
I alternate between wearing yellow and blue pants so I’ve done my bit.
Far TMI
In order to get lds back on track, let me posit this question:
Where else have we seen populations wandering around happily one day and then three or four later lying dead in the street?
Begins with a W if I remember correctly.
Wakanda?
Dead from stab wounds?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Wuhan?
The West truly is the Empire of Lies and we all need to declare ourselves apart from it.
What’s really sad is that they’re not even very good lies. Surely we can do better than that half-assed Bucha production? I mean, doesn’t anyone check the footage before it goes out? Can’t we spare a bit in the budget for some fake blood and guts? Shouldn’t someone at least coach the mayor to act like there’s been a horrific massacre when he’s speaking to the press when the Russians leave?
I know the Western media have been getting a bit lazy since they realised they could tell their people men could have babies and they didn’t laugh in their faces. But using clips from computer games, shoddy footage of construction sites with wrecking balls airbrushed out to claim missile attacks and now this school-play level of a false flag is making it really difficult to keep a straight face. I keep waiting for one of the reporters to crack up and just start laughing hysterically, but they seem to have kept a lid on that, for now.
Yesterday, Russia requested an urgent meeting at the UN Security Council to investigate what has taken place in Bucha, and this meeting and investigation was blocked by a vote from…… the UK.
Exactly. The epicentre of the Empire of Lies is the UK. The country that calls itself the cradle of freedom and democracy. The world’s financial toilet.
I also think these “bio labs” deserve investigating at the UN. Until they are fully examined I’m inclined to believe Putin when he says they’re Weapons of Mass Destruction. At least he managed to find some when he went to war.
I make this the third article the DS has published discussing this issue. It is not much better than the two ‘A-level’ standard entries that came before it. Given the tagline of the DS starts with ‘Question everything’ why does the DS appear to be questioning nothing about the Ukraine situation? This article is analysing a piece of Russian propaganda. Could we not start by questioning our own propaganda, particularly the ‘shock and awe’ tactics of our own MSM? If this is a step too far for the DS, could they not start by analysing the West’s role in this whole awful conflict? Some easy easy starting points:
The lockstep of all Western governments in lighting up their major landmarks in the colours of the Ukrainian flag
The immediate flying of the Ukrainian flag in solidarity (do we keep every single country flag in stock in the event we need to show our support?)
The constant appearance of Zelensky in box fresh khaki t shirts (a personal bugbear of mine). Given he is in a war zone how is he getting all these t shirts perfectly laundered?
Next level scepticism:
What is the West’s role in all of this? Why… Read more »
He’s probably in a Tel Aviv tv studio with a green screen for footage showing him in a war zone.
Good post….my own bugbear with Zelenskyy is the constant round of ‘appearances’…(the Grammys for goodness sake!) and his constant berating of other countries..Germany should stop buying gas…NATO are cowards, the UN should disband if it doesn’t do as he asks!? Telling the EU it should push the Green Agenda?
who the hell does he think he is and why is anyone listening to him?
Why isn’t he in constant negotiations with Russia..shouldn’t that be taking up all of his time…?
The fact that this is going on just tells me it’s agenda driven by the West….it’s all about getting rid of Putin and Russia and it’s sphere of influence.