A Response to Toby Young’s Babyish Piece About Ukraine

In a guest post for the Daily Sceptic, Lynne Sash argues that Putin's invasion of Ukraine was inevitable, given the West's provocations and NATO's relentless expansion eastwards.

7 min read

There follows a guest post by Lynne Sash that’s a response to Toby’s FAQs on Putin’s invasion of Ukraine.

I have been a daily follower of this site despite having left the U.K. permanently two and half years ago. Even living in comparatively sane red-state Iowa, it was helpful to know that we weren’t alone in wondering what possessed politicians to damage their societies to no purpose, and I welcomed the site’s transformation into a more broad-based sceptical platform. But I was disappointed in Toby Young’s February 28th article about the war in Ukraine. It struck me as a retreat from scepticism at time when we very much need to press on. I’d like to focus on one section of the post relating to Russia’s view of NATO expansion.

Overall, Young seems inclined to analyse this situation by making moral assessments about who is good and who is bad, but in this context booing the villain is unhelpful. Despite the emotional tenor of our times, geopolitics is not a morality play. These decisions are only about the strategic interests of the country you are defending. To paraphrase Lord Palmerston, there are no perpetual friends or enemies, only perpetual interests. Our interests are not the same as those of our adversaries, so we either need to find a way to reconcile them in a satisfactory manner or prepare for an eventual war.

This is the primary source of our trouble with Russia today. For the last 30 years the U.S., and by extension NATO, have failed to acknowledge that Russia has legitimate interests in its near abroad. The Georgian conflict, which occurred after discussion of Georgia joining NATO, was a good example of this. Faced with a potential NATO member on its southern border, it was always likely that Russia would see the breakaway entities of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as buffer republics with whom it could cooperate. Georgian entry into South Ossetia meant that the Russians did cross the border while pushing them back into their own country. It is reasonable to ask what role foreign advisors played in this conflict, given that it was an opportunity to gauge the nature and strength of any Russian response.

Discussion about Ukraine joining NATO was even more consequential. Not only is Ukraine a large country directly bordering Russia, the Russians were leasing the naval base at Sevastopol in Crimea, which is the home of the Black Sea Fleet and their primary warm-water port. Although the lease was extended by another 25 years in 2010, a NATO-allied Ukraine would eventually make this position untenable for everyone given that, in the event of hostilities, NATO would certainly neutralise the base as a matter of urgency. At this point, detaching Crimea from Ukraine would have become a strategic priority for Russia, hence the 2014 referendum which achieved this without bloodshed but did not resolve the problem of a potential NATO force on Russia’s western border.

NATO forces in Ukraine have always been a red line for Russians. George Kennan knew this, and nothing has changed. The Russians, quite reasonably in my view, regard hostile NATO troops on their longest western border as an existential threat. Why, then, has the West continued to toy with this idea when it is bound to lead to conflict? My thinking is that the West has been hoping that continuing or increased economic sanctions would weaken Russia to the point that it could do nothing to oppose Ukrainian membership of NATO. But that hasn’t worked.

There’s a comparison that’s been made frequently since the war broke out that I think is reasonable and instructive. If Russia engaged in the kind of activity in Mexico as the U.S. has in Ukraine, the U.S. Army would have been on its way to Mexico City long ago. There would be no talk of sovereignty or democracy, only the hard reality that Russians could not be allowed to expand and strengthen their presence on our border. And we would, for once, be right. It is not in the interest of our national security to permit it.

Russia aside, it is not at all clear that continued NATO expansion is beneficial to its member states. The original strength of the alliance lay in the fact that it had a limited membership agreed on the defined objective of containing Soviet expansion. But the world has changed since 1949, which has given rise to two problems that haven’t received enough attention. First of all, if NATO is still a defensive alliance, who or what is it defending itself against? The spontaneous response to this would be to identify Russia as the adversary, but this in turn implies that the existence of NATO itself casts Russia in the role of perpetual enemy. Unsurprisingly, the Russians have worked this out for themselves and concluded that their own national interests are likely to play out against a background of low-level Western hostility.

The other problem is the divergence of interests amongst NATO members themselves. In 1952 it made sense to include Turkey in the alliance: the country controls access to the Black Sea and its sheer size made it a regional power. Seventy years later it’s harder to see how our interests are aligned with those of Turkey. The renewed prominence of Islam in Turkey’s political calculations sets it at odds with its Western neighbours. Similarly, further NATO expansion risks drawing in countries whose own perception of their national interests may involve relying on NATO support for actions that were unanticipated by larger allies.

This issue becomes more acute as we consider membership for the larger countries bordering Russia. How precisely is our own security enhanced by including Georgia and Ukraine in NATO? This would certainly antagonise Russia while committing us to the defence of countries which, to speak frankly, have an axe to grind with their large neighbour. It is entirely possible that a limited regional conflict could be incited in the expectation that it would draw in the rest of NATO, as required by Article 5, and involve them in a direct attack on Russia. The unwieldy nature of an ever-expanding NATO carries significant risks that are not widely appreciated.

Where does this leave us now? The short answer is that we need to stop digging. Western policy decisions have contributed enormously to this crisis, and we need to understand and accept that if we intend to change it. As a matter of urgency Ukraine should be recognised as a buffer state between Russia and NATO allies. There should be an agreement of no NATO membership for Ukraine and preferably no EU membership. The ideal outcome would be international acknowledgement of both Ukraine and Belarus as non-aligned buffer states with no foreign military presence. It is possible to argue that this rewards Russia for its invasion, but given ongoing U.S./NATO provocation that refuses to even acknowledge Russian security concerns, how are the Russians to legitimately respond? The U.S. and its allies seem to arrogate to themselves the right to do a lot of things in the interests of national security that they won’t then let other countries do. This isn’t tenable, and if it isn’t addressed honestly by the West it is going to continue to cause resentment.

I have enormous sympathy for Ukrainians and I hope that, if our homes were under attack, we’d fight with as much determination as them. But while I don’t approve of the invasion, I do think it was inevitable. If we’re going to poke the Russians, they will poke back or else accept that the West has a free hand in their sphere of interest and, eventually, in Russia itself. We also have to ask ourselves whether the West is wasting whatever strength it has to the benefit and encouragement of China. Taiwan aside, if Russia is squeezed to the point of collapse, the Chinese are just across the Amur assessing the resource base of Siberia and the Russian Far East and are likely to be capable of denying the West access to these resources if they choose. I doubt the Hubristic Class has thought this far ahead.

Finally, I was disappointed to see Toby Young suggest that sceptics should take a certain view of this crisis. The sceptical way is the dispassionate way: we should be clear about our own objectives and understand how to manage adversarial relationships to achieve them with a minimum of conflict. It is very difficult to avoid being sucked into the contemporary emotional vortex – I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve screamed ‘Are you fucking kidding me?’ over the past two years – but it solves nothing, and neither will the simple solution of defining Putin as a bad guy. The adults left the room long ago, so let’s at least try to provide a mature perspective that is not driven by the overriding need to be publicly perceived as Good People by the megaphone-holders of progressivism.

Now you must excuse me while I return to my prepping activities in anticipation of societal collapse.

After a degree in International Relations, Lynne Sash worked in the U.K. for 30 years providing international research and strategy consultancy services for the engineering, defence, and healthcare industries. In 2019 she returned to Iowa, where she is assembling a library of ‘cancelled’ books.

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550 Comments
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Spent
Spent
4 years ago

I keep coming back to this article. Today I was in a very uncomfortable situation where I was pressed to take a side, and I just say no, I am not going to take a side, because politics is full of hypocrisy, but I felt sad and uneasy, after being in such a situation and that the person didn’t respect my point when I am respecting his. 🙁

janvanruth
janvanruth
4 years ago

russia IS the enemy.
just ask the finnish people, the polish people, the czecho-slovakian peoples, the hungarian people, the georgian people, the ukrainian people, and most of the former warsaw pact peoples.
all those peoples have experienced what russia is capable of.
chamberlain and daladier gave hitler sudetenland.
did it stop hitler from attacking poland?
(remember that poland was attacked from both sides?
the other invading country being… russia…)
does anyone actually believe that putin is going to stop after ukraine?
like chamberlain telling the british that he had spoken to mr hitler and that the british could sleep without a worry….

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

But then the Appeasers have only ever seen History textbooks printed next to the Lubyanka which, for some crazy reason state that history started in May 1945 from a small city in East German; who is Hitler I hear them say…

MrkMtchll
MrkMtchll
4 years ago
Reply to  janvanruth

Poland was always an aggressor to Russia throughout history and was considering an attack itself on Russia before the Russian pact with Germany.

dvdcsmth
dvdcsmth
4 years ago

Welcome counterpoint arguments. Thanks, Lynne. And thanks, Toby, for publishing Lynn’s essay.

International politics is always a messy business, and compromises are always necessary in the pursuit of coexistence without conflict.

But all sins are not equal. The ultimate sin, far greater than others, is armed invasion of one or more nations by one or more others. Russia has just committed this sin against Ukraine. That is inexcusable.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  dvdcsmth

Is it not strange that the Putin appeasers who have crawled out from their embedded existence see the aggressors as NATO/US/EU and have criticised the US in particular for invading foreign sovereign states on a, for them, non existent or flimsy pretext.

It surely is the mark of people deeply disatisfied with the relative freedoms that exist in the West primarily but not exclusively – in other words they want to inflict their own version of “control” because they “know” better than the proletariat; condescending faux intellectuals and I would NOT be surprised if they inhabit the public sector sphere of unreality in the main ( I do not underestimate, in any way, the casedemic scam we have had inflicted globally since late 2019 ).

Even more tellingly, it is the hallmark of Soviet/Sino style psyops propaganda that reflect back towards their target the legitimate criticisms of these despotic regimes – places devoid of “free and fair” elections – ignoring the gross actions of aggression committed by their “dear leaders”, whether it be fomenting separatist movements in the targets of their hegemonic designs, cyber attacks, theft of IP. Their MO is to attack the “aggressors” with accusations left right and… Read more »

DogSoldier
DogSoldier
4 years ago

Beautifully put, encapsulates my position ( and some of the old guard’s) entirely. Matlock was involved with the Cuban Missile crisis and offers his insight and experience, not to mention wisdom here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5F0JSy-HHY

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago

Let’s see another map, showing Putin’s REAL incursions into the independent territories of Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine, shall we, instead of the made-up arrows on Lynne’s map?

sskinner
sskinner
4 years ago
Reply to  AHotston

Yes. These arrows are childishly exaggerated and imply that NATO is intent on invading Russia. I worked in Tallinn for a short while and one work colleague remembers Russian tanks on the streets when the people in the Baltics started demonstrating against Soviet occupation. We cannot keep finding excuses for Russian (Putin’s) paranoia.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  AHotston

Far too inconvenient and counter factual to the appeasers….but you keep on keeping on.

MrkMtchll
MrkMtchll
4 years ago
Reply to  AHotston

Moldova is not even on Russia’s border

pre-Boomer Marine brat
pre-Boomer Marine brat
4 years ago

I’m going to send some of the commenters bouncing off the walls — screaming.

I’m going to be skeptical.

That photo, of the armed men with the swastika flag, one man giving a Hitler grusse … …

Since commenting began on this thread, I’ve slowly become skeptical about the possible ORIGINS of that photo. Who composed it, where, when, and for what purpose? In other words, is the photo authentic, or was it staged?

Going theoretical, the Nazi symbols might (might) have been included for a propaganda purpose. Those men might (might) not be whom they’re claimed to be. Theoretically, it might have been staged for a humorous purpose some time ago, and was grabbed lately because it could be “used”.

Why have I come to wonder that? … Very simple. … Several here are extremely strident regarding the photo’s obvious authenticity. Any questioning or criticism is met with demands to accept The Truth. They will not tolerate skepticism. The rest of us must believe, or else!

THEY are the fascists.

They claim skepticism, but deny us that right.

They demand that we conform. That we agree. … That we “salute”.

Salute who? Them.

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago

One thing’s for sure – a website like this would never be tolerated in Putin’s Russia.

JeremyP99
JeremyP99
4 years ago
JeremyP99
JeremyP99
4 years ago
Reply to  JeremyP99

.

Azov+Ukraina.jpg
Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  JeremyP99

This photo keeps doing the rounds since 2014, if not before, but where is the authenticity?

These lads are larking about. Very foolish, but do look at their ages. There is not one among them with seniority. They are having a laugh.

Then take a look at the rubbish vehicles behind them. What a joke!

And that some of them are wearing trainers.

The one doing the salute has a fleece and a woolly hat on.

And that their ‘weapons’ are all different bits and pieces. Maybe plastic ones from the kiddies.

This is no battalion. No proper uniform, no standard issue stuff. Stupid kids here in 2014, doing a prank, but not some serious force!

Yes, there is an Azov Special Operations Detachment, but they are not this lousy crew of jumped up kids.

Corky Ringspot
Corky Ringspot
4 years ago

Very good article. Admire you and achievements enormously, Tobes – but on this I think you’ve got it wrong.

chas cowie
chas cowie
4 years ago

Excellent article by Lynne Sash and another example of our hubristic elite saying “Do as we say not as we do.” In my opinion the whole purpose of this exercise is to raise fear levels again. More and more people were seeing through the Covid lies, Events like the Canada convoy and the NZ parliament demonstrations showed that Covid was losing its ability to scare people.

A cheer for Toby Young though for allowing a critical article on his site. We all know that the Establishment would never have permitted open criticism like this.

Sectasch
Sectasch
4 years ago

Glad to see open discussion permits an article like this. I would like for people to draw a parallel to what happened when Croatian forces stormed Serbian controlled Krajina and drove out hundreds of thousands of serbs and killed all that remained. When Serbia tried to enforce law and order in Kosovo, Nato bombing happened. It’s clear there are double standards and only those that are not a part of new world order will end up in war tribunals. You don’t have to look at it from an evil/good perspective. It just is and it has always been like that and always will be. As someone who witnessed, firsthand, the situation in which Ukrainians are now, I can sympathise, but I’m not naive. I can’t support their government. I can’t support what msm is reporting and what western nations are pushing. And, of course, I can never support what Putin is doing. I can only try to understand what everyone is doing.

evilhippo
evilhippo
4 years ago

This article is premised on very questionable assumptions and given the author’s background, I find that puzzling. It is akin to someone explain what underpins German actions in 1939 without having ever read Mine Kampf or actually listened to any of NSDAP speeches aimed at Germans.

Your analysis is like trying to understand Hitler without having read Mine Kampf and then blaming the Czechs for the German occupation of the Sudetenland.

Does Putin want Ukraine in NATO? Of course not, but not because it ‘threatens’ Russia but rather it threatens Russia’s expansion back to its previous Imperial borders. It is a second order issue, not a driving motivation.

This war was coming even if Ukraine had no interest in joining NATO as a means of defending itself. Merely deposing Putin’s sock-puppet Yanukovych after years of increasingly brutal repression was enough to demonstrate that Ukraine was starting to act like an independent nation rather than a satellite.

And that was intolerable to Putin. How do we know? Putin told us, that is how, if you actually listen to him. He has made no secret of what he thinks. He believes Ukraine is a ‘historical mistake’ and Ukrainians are just Russians, not… Read more »

Rob Westbury
Rob Westbury
4 years ago
Reply to  evilhippo

Does Putin want Ukraine in NATO? Of course not, but not because it ‘threatens’ Russia but rather it threatens Russia’s expansion back to its previous Imperial borders.

This is the issue in a nutshell. As you rightly say, the evidence is there and has been for years that he wants a Greater Russia which would be the old Soviet Union in all but name. Just reading Putin’s essays and listening to his views on the subject make it clear the NATO rationale he gives is confected misdirection.

Putin has a Moscow puppet in Belarus and he has designs on resolving the Moldova ‘problem’ by taking control of that country too. If Belarus ejected Lukashenko and a less Moscow-leaning leader replaced him, the same pressures brought to bear on Ukraine would be applied to the government in Minsk.

I understand scepticism of NATO and western governments because of their behaviour and dishonesty over many issues. But on this issue they are not to blame. Post-Yanukovych Ukraine reached out to the west with the support of the majority of its voters. It is under attack because of it. Russia is completely to blame for this and should be treated accordingly.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  evilhippo

100% right IMHO, and a single, well one of very few, siren voices who see straight through Putin and that good old Imperialist Soviet desire to live a peaceful life in symbiotic harmony with like minded neighbours by marching across their sovereign borders in columns of tanks.

As with you, this sounds and smells like : Один народ Одна империя один вождь to me.

The Enforcer
The Enforcer
4 years ago

I am not a medical man but I forecast the Covid outcome in the first week of lockdown directly to my MP in a very long email which ranged over the uselessness of Ferguson’s modelling (he has always been wrong for 25 years) to the deaths of older persons being brought forward and to get maximum natural immunity as we have always done with viruses.

The author of this piece has got it spot on. We need to negotiate with Putin on the basis that had a reasonable point at the outset and while it may seem like we are ‘giving into violence’, that is immaterial in the negotiation. One should say that he had a legitimate grouse and we should agree not to invite Ukraine and Georgia into Nato but accept they are an independent state acting as a buffer. Whether we treat Turkey differently is another matter as it has been in Nato since 1952 but it has a President in Erdogan who can best be described as ‘odd’.

pavelk
pavelk
4 years ago

What about to ask peole of Ukraine what they want? There is very good reason why they (as well as peolpe of Czechia – [my country] and other ex soviet empire countries) wanted to join NATO. We were afraid of Russian imperial policy and a possible Russian attack. There were no NATO green man forcing as to enter, no NATO army training at our border with artillery aimed at us.
Now we can see we were right. We are in NATO and Russia does not dare to attack us, unlike Georgia, Ukraine and Moldova, which was included in the plans for the invasion of Ukraine as well

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  pavelk

Moldova, which was included in the plans for the invasion of Ukraine as well.

Apparently. Assault by land, sea and air on Odessa, and then a push through to join up with Russian troops in ‘Transnistria’ within Moldova.

ianadair54
ianadair54
4 years ago

You have put it even better than Prof Mearsheimer in 2015! A really comprehensive description of why we are where we are – with no approval for Putin and his ‘klepto-thugocratic’ behaviour in all other spheres. Thei right to feeling secure has been suborned to ours (rightly) but RealPolitik became suspended with the end of the USSR.

“If we’re going to poke the Russians, they will poke back or else accept that the West has a free hand in their sphere of interest”.

Michael Staples
Michael Staples
4 years ago

Whatever the “feelings” of Russia, nothing said here justifies their current actions in Ukraine. As for Russia’s worries about feeling threatened by NATO, I see no evidence of any such threat, as NATO acts in Europe as a defensive alliance. One only has to look at the state of most of Europe’s armed forces to assess their “threat” as negligible. Please point to any Western policy which threatens Russia.
Having said that, Russia’s case to take back Crimea with its population’s consent seemed reasonable, as it was only administratively transferred to Ukraine as a province of the USSR in the early fifties, and has always been Russian. This should have been sorted out when the USSR disintegrated.

Isaac Phiri
Isaac Phiri
4 years ago

As a complete aside, looking at the map at the header of this article, its very interesting how countries and their populations see themselves in the world.

Our world view is based on UK being at the centre of the map and our neighbours and near neighbours, familiar and constant.

How different to the Russian when he looks at his map, with Russia surely being at the centre. How close the USA is, how big an Asian border it has and oddly how small the European boarder is bar Ukraine.
We all know this anyway but when presented in a visual like this its quite striking.

Interesting map view – thats all.

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  Isaac Phiri

Same in China – they are centre of their maps and have long referred to themselves as the ‘middle kingdom’.

Nigel Sherratt
Nigel Sherratt
4 years ago

David Aaronovitch in Thurday’s ‘Times’ (London) worth reading, he describes himself as ‘something of a Russophile’. Behind a paywall so I’ve reproduced the last few paragraphs. Interesting in the current fevered ‘Nazi, Nazis everywhere’ atmosphere.
‘In 2005 [Putin] arranged the repatriation and reinterment of the remains of an early 20th-century Russian philosopher, Ivan Ilyin. Since then Ilyin’s quotes have peppered Putin’s speeches and interviews, and Ilyin’s works have been recommended to Russian officials and Russian youth.
This should have been a warning, because for much of his life Ilyin was what you might call a Christian fascist. Decrying democracy and the limitations of law, Ilyin preached that Russia – ” an organism of nature and the soul ” – was, even when it was expanding into an empire, essentially suffering victimhood at the hands of others. Russia was always innocent and always indivisible. Whatever it did was right.
Imagine giving total power to someone who believes this. It is so frightening that we decided (aside from a pessimistic few, now able to claim their prophetic mantles) not to notice. The nasty but negotiable kleptocrat suited us better. Well we know better now and the Ukrainians are bleeding with the knowledge.
… Read more »

mac1
mac1
4 years ago

Great to see a different view and one so intelligently presented.

SimCS
SimCS
4 years ago

If preventing Ukraine being in NATO to prevent NATO bordering Russia, it seems very strange that Putin is trying to extend ‘his’ border *to* NATO. He’s achieving the very thing he wants to prevent. There’s nowt so queer as folk.

Meltonian1
Meltonian1
4 years ago
Reply to  SimCS

Does Russia want to annexe Ukraine?

Pilla
Pilla
4 years ago

Excellent article. BTW, everyone should listen to James Delingpole’s second, very recent interview with Alex Thomson, as well as Alex’s testimony on day 2 of Reiner Fuellmich’s Grand Jury. For background (historical and geopolitical) to the whole situation, he is brilliant.

mojo
mojo
4 years ago

One of the very best articles I have read on this site. We have let the children run policy and make far reaching decisions for many years. When they don’t get their way they stamp their feet and scream until we give in.

i have noticed over the years that the very best solutions to our problems come from the working people and those who have reasoned the facts and the long term. This is why many so called sceptics realised that leaving the EU completely was necessary for UK’s future confidence and survival. It’s why President Trump was so heavily supported by the working people of America because he too understood that feelings and tantrums didn’t make for good international relationships.

Now we have the feelz brigade shouting for Ukraine. One of the most corrupt countries in the world thanks to American coercion. President Putin has been the adult politician in all this. For 15 years he has asked for dialogue and understanding. He has considered his own country and its safety concerns. He has reached out a hand to join NATO in order to bring understanding but has been refused. The childish reaction of the Western leaders was… Read more »

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  mojo

Can you please share details of these ‘bioweapons factories’ on Russia’s borders, and what is ‘on Russia’s borders’? Would that be within 50 miles, 100 miles? I’m naturally sceptical of such claims without genuine evidence.

Every country has factories and laboratories doing biotech these days, Ukraine included, but bioweapons is something else altogether.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

If you don’t like the source, just do a search for “US Bio labs Ukraine”

https://alethonews.com/2022/03/03/why-did-the-us-embassy-official-website-just-remove-all-evidence-of-ukrainian-bioweapons-labs/

There was a lady investigative reporter filming the labs in Ukraine in the last couple of year or so (showing US diplomatic plates on the cars entering), I can’t remember her name (and twitter blocks me scrolling to find out) I was more interested in the Wuhan stuff so didn’t take too much in, I read a couple of her pieces that were very good, I mite be getting her mixed up with Sharri Markson

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  ImpObs

What have these laboratories to do with bioweapons? They appear to be for biological surveillance, to detect swine flu etc in Ukraine among livestock. Every community the world over needs these.

There seems to be a jump from bio labs and bio-research to bioweapons.

Or do you think Ukraine shouldn’t do biological surveillance?

jennyw
jennyw
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate

The US Government recently scrubbed all their Ukraine biolab funding documents from their website.

https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/sections-offices/defense-threat-reduction-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/

Try by yourself… If you go on their website, you will see a bunch of pdfs files on the left side of the page. Now press on one of the links… Just in the last few days they removed all the PDF files from the embassy website

The good news is they are still archived:

https://web.archive.org/web/20170130193016/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-kharkiv-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20210511164310/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-luhansk-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170221125752/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-dnipropetrovsk-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20210506053014/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-vinnitsa-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170221125752/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-dnipropetrovsk-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170207122550/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-kherson-fact-sheet-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170223011502/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-ternopil-fact-sheet-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170208032526/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-zakarpatska-fact-sheet-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170208032526/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-zakarpatska-fact-sheet-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170202040923/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-lviv-dl-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170201004446/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-lviv-rdvl-eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20161230143004/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-eidss.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20210506212717/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-pathogen-asset-control.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170207153023/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/dtro-dnipropetrovsk-rdvl_eng.pdf

https://web.archive.org/web/20170211022339/https://photos.state.gov/libraries/ukraine/895/pdf/kiev-ivm-fact-sheet-eng.pdf

These labs are co-run by Fauci’s EcoHealth Alliance and rumour is Russia’s entire military operation right now is unofficially to either secure and/or destroy these labs and gather evidence.

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

I couldn’t get any of these links to work.

Where is the evidence that these labs are doing bioweapons research rather than bio-surveillance, which needs to be done with any country with livestock and humans?

I’m not saying you are wrong. I’m just sceptical since no evidence has been posted as yet.

Proveritate
Proveritate
4 years ago
Reply to  jennyw

Yes, there are plenty of rumours. I looked back into the history of this, and it looks as though you might have become caught up with Russian propaganda.

Can you please provide the evidence for your claim that these are co-run by the EcoHealth Alliance.

DogSoldier
DogSoldier
4 years ago
Reply to  Proveritate
Darren Turner
Darren Turner
4 years ago

You could ( and we did) make the same argument for Hitler in the 1930s. Putin is a dictator. He jails or murders his political opponents at home and abroad (Navalny, Salisbury) and there is no democratic option for choice of government for the people of Russia. Ukraine is an independent country and should be free to choose it’s own economic and security links like EU and NATO. Do you seriously think NATO wants to invade Russia? All the West including the USA wants is for Russians to be able to choose their own government freely every 5 years or so and build a society where everyone has a fair crack of the whip and access to legal justice and trade freely with other countries. Scepticism is a good thing but history shows that when a dictator behaves as Putin has behaved for 23 years now with his military activities and his domestic oppression there is no reasoning with him.

mojo
mojo
4 years ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

Everything you have just said is taken directly from the playbook of smear and propaganda. Have you researched anything in this piece or checked on its factual credibility

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  mojo

So what has Darren Turner written that is false?

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  MTF

MTF, I do not take your view on vaccines for a nanosecond, but your take on Putin/Ukraine is a beacon of sense – bravo if I may say so.

MTF
MTF
4 years ago
Reply to  186NO

Thank you.

Beefbeefbeef
Beefbeefbeef
4 years ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

I’m not here to defend Putin across the board but the Salisbury target was a double agent, which is the lowest of the low. Frankly, he deserved what was coming to him. The Russians botched it – which is unforgiveable – but their intentions were perfectly understandable.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  Beefbeefbeef

Oh FFS – what the bloody hell do you think the Russians were doing in this country and elsewhere around the world from the 1920’s onwards – speaking peace and brotherly love and selling cuckoo clocks?

Burgess, Maclean, Philby, Blunt – just tell me precisely how well their intellectually superior minded ideology worked out for the people they betrayed in their thousands and for them personally; paragons of fine upstanding examples of humanity as they were?

NOT. If you don’t know how and why British Intelligence grew in the latter part of the 1900’s onwards; principally through the actions of the empire of Bismarck and Lenin against this country and others. Understanding how the utter lack of personnel to counter a growing threat, initially from German desire to gain naval secrets. Laughably amateurish does not describe it as it grappled with a growing Russian threat during WWI.

You win today’s star prize, and there are imho many candidates so the competition is stiff, for the best “handwritten” comment with black out blinkers on: “….but their intentions were perfectly understandable.”

You have very clearly learned diddly squat from the humanitarian example set by Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Vlad Dracula,… Read more »

vivaldi
vivaldi
4 years ago
Reply to  Darren Turner

That’s rather naive…..”domestic oppression” comes in many forms and has been wielded in many countries since March 2020. As for choosing “their own government freely”… in the UK, for example, choice is an illusion. The comparison with Hitler is no comparison….completely different circs.

Iain McCausland
Iain McCausland
4 years ago

Damned well said! TY has lost the plot on this one, too much of the establishment politician in him me thinks.

white.pete
white.pete
4 years ago

A really excellent article. Informed, balanced, unemotional and realistic. However, like Covid it will take the end of the crisis for anyone in the mainstream to present an article even marginally as good as this. Thank goodness for Sceptics and maybe Toby Young inadvertently did the debate a whole lot of good and he does have form for admitting when is wrong – as in this case.

Wilco148
Wilco148
4 years ago

Spot on observation, Lynne. Young’s ‘whataboutery’ was wrong, truly wrong and a stupid comment. I should imagine if he hasn’t painted his house, he has painted his finger nails yellow and blue in ‘solidarity’ with the rest of the limp virtue signallers

Beefbeefbeef
Beefbeefbeef
4 years ago

My favourite quote from this article:

“I’ve lost track of the number of times I’ve screamed ‘Are you fucking kidding me?’ over the past two years”

Yup – me too!!

clivepinder
clivepinder
4 years ago

It seems ironic that on the one hand we should be up in (proverbial) arms about Government taking away our liberty through lockdowns etc and on the other hand suggesting we reward the violent invasion of a totalitarian despot by denying liberty to a sovereign nation and expecting them to give up territory and limit what friends they can make! What would be next? China takes Taiwan. India Bangladesh? Argentina the Falklands? Turkey Cypress? It is quite clear that Ukraine doesn’t want to be ruled by Russia. Who are we to decide that they should subjugate themselves? If they want to fight we should do everything we can economically and emotionally to support them. Either you believe in the sovereignty of nations (Brexit et al) or you don’t. Sometimes principles have to rise above pragmatism and I believe this is one of those times.

Wilco148
Wilco148
4 years ago
Reply to  clivepinder

What would be next – good question.. more of Serbia to ethnic Albanian Muslim terrorists. A total destruction of Syria, Iraq and Libya (too late, that’s been done). Central Africa smacked about to keep the flow of illegals traipsing up to Europe (opps, again, ongoing).. Give it a break and watch Chris Parry on talking pints with Nige Farage (GBNews), if you can drag yourself away from the Globalist edited media

AHotston
AHotston
4 years ago
Reply to  clivepinder

The only comfort to be taken from the prevalence of Putin apologists on here is that the actual numbers involved are small – just a handful of people. It just means that the Daily Sceptic is widely read down the paranoid conspiracy theorist rabbit hole. However, the DS may wish to amend its masthead – the “Stay Sane” wording is no longer relevant to the majority of readers.

B.F.Finlayson
B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  clivepinder

Either you believe in the sovereignty of nations (Brexit et al) or you don’t

This has to be the most naïve comment yet. Sovereignty, like individual liberty, comes with responsibility. Ukraine has allowed itself to become a fascist US puppet. Zelensky doesn’t seek Ukrainian autonomy but NATO eastward expansion in contravention of the Budapest Memorandum. He wants US Nukes that he would have no control of on Ukraine soil. He is the means by which Ukraine surrenders economic and political sovereignty to Brussels and military decisions to Washington DC.
Let us suppose Scotland gained independence, left NATO and announced it would allow Russian nukes to be placed along the border from Gretna to the Tweed. Do you still believe in your brand of sovereignty now? As the saying goes, the liberty of my first ends where your nose starts; with foreign controlled nukes this becomes a tad more nuanced.

B.F.Finlayson
B.F.Finlayson
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

first = fist.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  B.F.Finlayson

Nahh, too hell bent on getting the Scots to trans to some other kind of hell on earth.

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  clivepinder

It seems odd, even hypocritical, to bemoan interfearance in a soverign nation by one party, when another party interfeared in the same nation only 8 years ago.

Unless you can argue (convincingly) instigating a colour revolution, including giving far right groups power, resulting in >14,000 civillian deaths, is a lesser evil than the invasion.

pre-Boomer Marine brat
pre-Boomer Marine brat
4 years ago

It’s so VERY interesting, that “Soviet” means “Russia”.

Obviously, the Tsar and his family were executed because they were involved in a plot inside the Bolshevik inner cadre. Were they on Leon Trotsky’s side?

/ <–that’s a sarc tag

meanonsunday
meanonsunday
4 years ago

So Russia has a “legitimate” interest in preventing the countries that it’s totalitarian regime oppressed from now forming alliances to protect themselves from future aggression and to develop the economies that the Soviets stunted for 40+ years? And the analogy about Mexico is ridiculous. Countries ally with the US because of the economic advantages and with the goal of improving the future wealth and health of their people; there is no implied threat to the surrounding nations except that their people may be envious of that wealth. Countries ally with Russia to help prop up their totalitarian elites, and they threaten everyone around them because those elites may behave irrationally in their desperation to maintain control.

David Beaton
David Beaton
4 years ago
Reply to  meanonsunday

Russia does not have a “totalitarian regime” – we on the other hand are moving towards one on a Global scale.

Take a close look at your Government’s ‘plans’ for your Human Rights in their new ‘Bill of Rights” and see what Dorries has planned for you in her ‘On Line Harms Bill’ everything on line causes ‘harm’ by the way – especially any ideas the Government doesn’t agree with.

The Russo-Ukrainian conflict provides them with a massive much needed diversion from their crumbling Covid narrative and planned freedom threatening legislation not to mention their still on-going ‘Covid Emergency’ Health and Vaccination policies.

186NO
186NO
4 years ago
Reply to  David Beaton

“Russia does not have a “totalitarian regime” – we on the other hand are moving towards one on a Global scale” – and leopards got stripes?

ImpObs
ImpObs
4 years ago
Reply to  meanonsunday

And the analogy about Cuba?

Wilco148
Wilco148
4 years ago
Reply to  meanonsunday

I can see you read no wider than what is force fed you daily by the Left Stream Media.

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