In a somewhat mindboggling development, German Health Minister Karl Lauterbach’s approving retweet of a Piers Morgan interview with Douglas Murray from the Israel-Gaza border has caused a stir in Germany and even given rise to scattered calls for the minister to resign. The since-deleted tweet can be seen below with a Google translation.
Murray is one of the journalists to have been shown footage of the October 7th Hamas massacre of Israeli civilians. The supposedly incriminating passage in the interview is the following one and it refers to this footage.
The thing that struck me about seeing the October 7th footage was that even the Nazis were actually ashamed of what they did. You know, SS battalions who spent their days shooting Jews in the back of the head and pushing them into trenches had to get very, very drunk in the evening to forget what they had done… I tell you one very big difference. If you look at the footage, the raw footage… If [people] see it, they will see something that is at least as barbaric as what the Nazis did. But here’s the difference. They did it with glee. They were deeply proud. You see people taking the head off a young Israeli man with a shovel and then calling their parents back in Gaza and telling them: “Father, Father, I’ve killed 10 Jews of my own hands. Get Mother on the phone, I want to tell her.” … The Nazis… also were a genocidal anti-Semitic organisation. But they tried to cover their crimes up. Hamas are actually proud of them.
Note that in his post, Lauterbach already in fact took his distance from precisely these remarks, writing “The trivialisation of the Nazis vis-à-vis Hamas is wrong. Such crimes should not and cannot be compared.” But apparently it was not enough for Lauterbach to flag this and, in effect, accuse Murray of such “trivialisation”. Per his critics, he ought not to have reposted the video at all.
But, in any case, it is difficult to understand in what mental universe Murray’s remarks could be construed as trivialisation of Nazi crimes. Indeed, Murray explicitly says that Hamas’s actions were “at least as barbaric as what the Nazis did”, which means, needless to say, that he regards the latter as barbaric. It should be recalled, moreover, that the footage to which he refers is reported to document civilians being shot at point-blank range, families being burned alive in their homes, and even, as touched upon by Murray, decapitations. How is comparing Nazi crimes to such atrocities trivialising anything at all?
The word that Lauterbach uses in fact literally means “to make harmless” (verharmlosen). In what world are point-blank shootings, burning people alive and beheadings “harmless”?
Murray merely added that the Hamas perpetrators in the videos appeared to be proud and happy about their crimes, whereas, on his understanding, the German perpetrators of Nazi crimes felt bad about them.
Now, that is indeed a contestable claim. As the German historian Jürgen Zimmerer notes in a tweet, “There are 100s of photos of SS men and soldiers posing in front of corpses”, and even in the English-language discussion, at least since the publication of Daniel Jonah Goldhagen’s Hitler’s Willing Executioners, it is well-known that many ordinary Germans took part in the Holocaust with gusto. The grinning faces of the men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 in the below photo do not reflect remorse.
But what does this prove other than that the German historian knows somewhat more about Nazi crimes than the British journalist? And, in any case, how does observing the depravity of Hamas’s crimes make Murray an “Islamophobic Right-wing radical”, as Zimmerer accuses him of being? Zimmerer is not alone, moreover. Numerous of the disapproving German tweets describe Murray as “far-Right”, “racist” and the like.
The real, underlying message of the German critics of Lauterbach and indeed of Lauterbach himself, in light of his own remarks on “trivialisation”, appears to be that Nazi crimes can never be compared to contemporary acts, no matter how depraved. But what then of the famous dictum ‘never again’? Is not the whole point of the latter that it could happen again and that we have thus to be vigilant? Or are we supposed to wait for the German Minister of Health or other self-appointed German experts to tell us when the appropriate threshold has been reached and we are thus permitted to make the comparison?
For both Lauterbach and his ostensible critics, it would seem that “merely” burning Jews alive or beheading them is not sufficient. The fact of the matter is that by accusing Murray of trivialising Nazi crimes, it is they who are trivialising the crimes of Hamas.
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Murray was, and still is, a nasty Neocon.
He was bouncing around with the same kind of inflammatory BS flying flags for the Iraq War. He found his way back to conservatives hearts because of his eloquent attacks on wokism.
He had no problem with Covid lockdowns or vaccine mandates or the Ukraine war.
Hes a vile one trick pony. Just so happens there are a lot of crypto neo cons here obsessed with Israel.
Plus ca change….
If Hamas put down their weapons there would be peace. If ‘neo-cons’ Israel put down their weapons they would be wiped out. From the river to the sea.
Discuss.
There wouldn’t be peace, there would be a new target and all the usual suspects involved in creating another conflict. It doesn’t matter what side they claim to be on, they aren’t working for the benefit of everyone else.
Perhaps that’s true but for anyone trying to spin the ‘Israel are the permanent aggressors’ line, there’s unfortunately always a massive elephant in the room disguised as an Islamic death cult.
Being neither Arab nor Jewish I have no skin in this game but I fear for UK society when vast swathes of grown adults are roaming the streets of London holding effigies of dead babies and screaming for Jihad and the death of Jews. What’s even more worrying are the vast swathes of politicians and commentariat who are supporting and defending this with their deliberate omissions and silence. The very same pampered blowhards who’ll happily spout vapid eggy platitudes such as “silence is violence.”
Whatever you might think of him, everything Murray says in that interview is spot on. If literally the only response people have got to it is ad hominem attack, that proves that he’s right.
If you live in the UK perhaps you have more involvement than you think. As the Israeli regime and Hamas-funding Qatari regime (for example) are both close friends of the UK government, apparently the UK is on both sides.
I hadn’t heard of Douglas Murray until very recently but it seems he could have done some great journalism tracking down the Hamas leaders in London that he has mentioned and questioning them rather than engaging in a bit of conflict tourism.
Exactly. How can Murray claim on the one hand the heads of Hamas in Qatar are living in luxury as millionaires (they are) whereas London-bases Hamas leaders are living on benefits.
‘…effigies of dead babies and screaming for jihad and the death of Jews’ – er…where? You didn’t attend the march did you Douglas Murray clone. There was no call for the death to Jews, many Jewish people and organisations attended the peaceful march and irony of ironies, the police had to be called in to protect the Cenotaph from the EDL, as they – like the Pearson-Fox-Murray-Oakenshott Sayanim train – apparently couldn’t tell the time. 2 min silence 11am. March started 12.45pm. Get a grip.
Why are no NATO member countries leaders calling for an immediate ceasefire? Isn’t that the humane thing to to do?
There’s no point in discussing this slogan as it just presents someone’s belief about two hypothetical scenarios. We’ll know what’s going to happen in either case should one of them ever happen. But I don’t think it will as both parties are convinced that they’re in an armed conflict with each other.
If Hamas put down their weapons, there’d be no Palestine. From the river to the sea does not call for the expulsion of Jews, merely the end of occupation for the Palestinians. Furthermore, the percentage of Semites in Gaza is higher than the percentage of Semites in Israel according to Tsvi Misinai, an Israeli researcher and entrepreneur who asserts that nearly 90% of all Palestinians living within Israel and the occupied territories(including Israel’s Arab citizens and Negev Bedouin)[83] are descended from the Jewish Israelite peasantry that remained on the land, after the others, mostly city dwellers, were exiled or left.
So is it anti-Semitic to bomb Gaza? Discuss.
Jew, Arab, Christian, all lived reasonably peaceably together in Palestine until the Zionists arrived courtesy of perfidious Albion with assistance from Uncle Sam. The legacy of which has left the Levant in turmoil, death and destruction ever since.
The indigenous Levant Jew warned of the consequences of the creation of a Jewish homeland inhabited and controlled by Zionists from Eastern Europe and Russia but to avail.
In some peoples eyes the persecuted Jew has now become the persecutor
I do remember him on Newsnight in 2020 criticising Lockdowns, but not as harshly as others like Peter Hitchens. As for Jordan Peterson, such a great and deep thinker fell short on that one. As Abi Robberts pointed out, they should go to these prestigious universities and ask for their money back.
Bit brutal ! He was late to Convid but he’s on track with Wokism ! At least he sounds normal compared to the Freaks running the show .
He has his uses.
Histrionically wearing a flack jacket begging up a brutal bombing campaign and riling everyone up is not one of them.
Anyone who has read or listened to Douglas Murray should know he addresses issues others do not want to discuss and he does it intelligently. There is never any hint of the attitudes the Gernam seems to have detected – perhaps the left are starting to become embarassed by their friends in Palestinian organisations to whom they have directed so much money.
I really get a bit fed up with all of these constant comparisons to the Nazis. It’s not like they had the monopoly on being the only evil psychopaths historically. Mind you, the obvious common denominator with Nazis and radical Muslims is their hatred of Jews. Murray is right in what he says but this guy calls it in a succinct manner I think;
https://twitter.com/darrengrimes_/status/1724388650073391459
yes … but remember, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was in league with the Nazis, and his intent was to replicate the Holocaust in the ME. Hamas also known to use the Nazi salute. They’d be happy bedfellows in another time…
As the National Socialists received funding from US industrialists and the US and USSR were more than happy to accommodate former Nazis without any expectation they would leave their ideology at the door, a very big bed is in order. Fast-forward many decades and we have a fascist-labelled Israeli state welcoming members of the Azov battalion and much support for said battalion in the West (but only after the Russian invasion).
Do any of these groups not have an affinity with, or use for Nazis past or present?
Hamas doesn’t use the Nazi salute. They’re mostly Semites numb nuts.
And some of those Nazi camp guards had houses on site, sometimes only metres away from all the horrors while they tuck their kids into bed with a story.
I could only watch 5 minutes of the lies and propaganda spouted by Douglas Murray to reaffirm my belief that he is just an “establishment” apologist for the Zionist genocide against the indigenous Palestinians.
He is shown videos by the IDF and spouts the nonsense that they want him to portray.
If you are shown a house riddled with holes and burnt to the ground it is easy to jump to conclusions.
The IDF didn’t tell the so-called “journalists” that the IDF used tanks, artillery and Apache attack helicopters to destroy any Hamas fighters holed up in houses with hostages regardless of civilian casualties due to the Hannibal Doctrine.
Survivors have said that saw no killings until the IDF turned up.
It’s a shame The Daily Sceptic can’t be more sceptical about the “narrative” they are being fed.
Ad hominem attack means you don’t have the intellectual capacity nor evidence to challenge the substance of Murray’s report.
HeadHalfFull.
Generous
Have you always been a hypocrite accusing me of an ad hominen attack followed by an abusive comment?
Use your brain JXB. Do you seriously think a note saying ‘kill as many as you like’ was found on the body of one of the Hamas militants? Did he have alzheimers? Did he find himself over there thinking ‘hang on, now what did I come for?’ Did you also fall for the Russian passport floating above NS2 or Atta’s passport found in the burned out rubble of the WTC? Maybe they should start constructing buildings from passports as they can clearly withstand temperatures of 500 degrees? Hamas want live bodies they can swap for prisoners in Israeli jails. Dead bodies are of no use.
Just to remind some here of the score since the “war” began –
Israel – roughly 1,500 dead (includes some killed by IDF artillery/aircraft in understandable panic at the beginning).
Hamas – unknown but in the strip it’s over 11,000 civilians including over 4,000 children.
Buried under the rubble – roughlyy 2,000.
Badly injured – multiply the figures by 3.
Homeless?
The IDF has split gaza in two and vast areas of the north are rubble after being bombed.
I know its evocatively horrific to hear of murder by shovels, but is shredding kids to bits with shrapnel any different?
How many thousands of civilian deaths will it take, and to achieve what exactlly, before some on here maybe think it’s “disproportionate”. I mean you might want the IDF to wipe them all out? I don’t know….
Only one thing’s for sure, there’s a whole lot of new terrorists being created because of this.
Source: Hamas Ministry of Health. ‘Nuff said.
Already created , in every western country ready to carry on where 7/10 left off , targeting Jewish people is the cry but anyone else not in TROP will soon be fair game to the extremists amongst them , “let’s be nice to them & they won’t hurt me” NOT
Go on downtickers, give me a number
“…a whole lot of new terrorists being created because of this”.
You’re joking, right?
Has it escaped your notice that this happens daily anyway? The Hamas/Islamist Manual of Guidance tells them to kill Jews (and a whole lot of other people as well). Has it escaped your notice that an awful lot of Islamists like to follow their Manual of Guidance to the letter?
If Israel called of their mission to eradicate Hamas, the rockets and murders would return. Its like the scorpion in the river crossing story. Its stings the ferryman because ‘…it’s in my nature’.
The people of Palestine/Gaza have suffered enough. Hamas haven’t suffered anything like enough.
Douglas Murray is NOT an independently minded journalist.
He is and was a lobbyist for Israel via Just Journalism and the Henry Jackson Society
What genocide? The placing of the military and armaments in civilian buildings is a breach of the Geneva Convention, and the IDF have every right to attack these buildings.
It it’s genocide you are after, may I suggest you read both the Hamas Charter and the Quran.
Sorry, you are beyond ignorant.
You should change your name to Jeremy P45, your fired.
“There is no doubt that Israel’s actions amount to genocide. Numerous international law experts have said so and genocidal intent has been directly expressed by numerous Israeli ministers, Generals and public officials.”
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/11/activating-the-genocide-convention/
You won’t get a coherent response until he/she/it has recieved appropriate orders.
The daughter of a friend of mine was shot at in her car by Hamas terrorists. She escaped with some wounded passengers.
Her name is Noa Beer. Look her up.
It wasn’t a Merkava or Apache. It was Hamas terrorists in the road.
Many Israeli civilians were killed by the IDF, fact.
“The trivialisation of the Nazis vis-à-vis Hamas is wrong. Such crimes should not and cannot be compared.”
What? Making comparisons is not trivialisation. Compared with Mao and Stalin, Hitler killed fewer people, doesn’t trivialise what Hitler did.
Don’t forget, high IQ, intellectuals believe a woman can have a penis and doesn’t need to have a womb – and there are many sexes/genders whatever, as the imagination can come up with.
We must learn not to expect too much from the parade of clowns and imbeciles of the self-selecting, self-publicist, progressive, intellectual class.
Douglas Murray must need permanent security now, or flee to the US like the ex Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali who escaped Islam to Europe only to find the chattering class hostile to free speech while being threatened by imported Islamists.
That’s probably just a technical fault, but a really nice one (attached image). It’s also pretty certain that neither Stalin’s nor Mao’s nor Pol Pot’s killers ever had any misgivings about what they did. I’m just mentioning these three because they were the first three I remembered. But leaving this issue aside, these continued attempts to tap into well-nurtured hatred for Germans in support of the politics of the current government of Israel are seriously misplaced: The German Jews were isolated and helpless victim of an overpowering state which mercilessly exterminated them (or so the official narrative goes). The victims of the Hamas attack became victims because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and because a failure of the security services supposed to prevent something like this from happening. There’s no aspect of industrialized murder and systematic persecution in this, just an isolated attack by a band of murderous madmen which won’t be repeated too soon.
I have lived in the UK my whole life but half my family is German and I don’t think it’s common to “hate Germans” in the UK. People here may be guilty in your eyes of lazy thinking with regard to Germany, or be guilty of ignorance about the true history (and you may be right) but I have never felt this amounts to “hatred”.
In 1992, the German frigate I was serving on (as conscript) at that time lay in Kiel harbour because it had been selected as flagship of the Kieler Woche in that year. As common for this event, a lot of warships from all kinds of nations lay in the harbour as well, in particular, there was a Type 22 British frigate moored pretty close to our ship. One evening, when I was on watch, a (sober) British sailor walked past the Köln, turned in our direction, raised his arm to a Hitler salute and shouted “Heil Hitler!”
That’s obviously an isolated incident of some time ago but the attitude is by no means uncommon.
I got teased a bit at school but that was pretty normal – differences of all kinds are seized upon. Obviously I cannot know what was in that sailor’s mind but as I said I have never encountered “hatred” of Germans, and I am not that young. My Dad was in the British Army and his family accepted my Mum quite happily, and that was not long after the war.
The obvious gross examples would be:
Passing of demonstration of Arabs in Germany against the strongly Israel-supporting stance of the German government which is unequivocally shared among the overwhelming majority of the German people as somehow German antisemitism, this being gleefully repeated all over mainstream and not-so-maintstream right-wing publication in the Anglosphere.
and – of course – the classic
Bombing of civilan dwellings with the intent of destroying them and – preferably – killing the inhabitants, especially if done with incendiary devices, is, according to so-called international law, a war crime. Except when the people flying the bombers are English and the civilians German. These are all hereditary Nazi criminals and hence, it’s something to erect monuments to (financed by prominent Brexit supporters, obviously).
I don’t know and have never met anyone that “hates Germans” – at least not that I have detected. The kinds of things you describe are all plausible and may all be accurate, but I don’t think “hate” is the right word. Brits are in the main fairly tolerant in my experience, and while we’re conscious what we like to think of as our differences with “continental Europe” I feel in the main we regard them as cousins.
Also do you remember in the early 90s green shirts with the German flag were in fashion for some reason, I remember the Headmaster telling me I’m a traitor wearing that shirt.
On a side note Murray doesn’t ham it up for the cameras when missiles are flying unlike a CNN reporter Clarissa Ward – https://rumble.com/v3odreg-cnn-busted-faking-attack-in-israel-for-the-camera-this-is-insane-and-appall.html
Why on EARTH does ANYONE take any notice of Morgan?
Answers on a postcard. Man’s a buffoon
A very unpleasant character. I would also say is it worse to have a sense of glee or triumph when commiting an atrocity against a perceived enemy than to just view it as digging out the weeds or mowing the lawn as they are wont to say. If I kill a disabled person because I feel some hatred towards him, is it worse than killing him because I view him as untermensch and a let down on the collective. I think there is a difference and the moral failing is worse in the case of the elitists. Nobody knows the mind of God. You can’t look at other human beings and decide that they aren’t fully human that is beyond your remit and understanding.
If you want to gain a deeper understanding of Nazism then read the Futurist manifesto which the Nazis relied upon.It openly expresses hatred of peace and the female and is readily available online. This is a very disruptive force that is very much alive in the world today. I would be careful about being seduced by it but you can’t be careful about it if you don’t know about it.
There is an assumption that after the war Holocaust survivors just picked up their lives and started all over again and some did. But about half of the survivors commited suicide having decided that life its too horrific afterwards. He has no understanding of that situation because if he did then he would be more circumspect.
Murray is the outstanding philosophical commentator of our age.
Comparing the extermination of 6M Jews to the events of October 7th does indeed trivialize the Holocaust, not least as the Holocaust is well documented with names, dates and exact locations, whereas information surrounding the Oct 7th attacks is still filtering through. According to the Times of Israel, the number of dead listed includes 200 members of Hamas, 2/3 of those killed were Israeli military and while it’s dubious that the Apache helicopter shooting of fleeing civilians can be verified (were those being shot from the sky fleeing Palestinians or Israelis) there has been witness testimony in Israeli newspapers and on Israeli radio from Kibbutz defense teams and IDF tank commanders saying that that ‘difficult decisions had to be made’ such as firing into houses where Hamas militants were believed to be hiding – whether or not civilians were present.
Considering how traumatised many if not all Jewish people are after centuries of persecution, expulsion and extermination, comparing the October 7th attacks to the Holocaust (or convincing Jewish people in London there are angry mobs after their blood) is not only reprehensible, it’s downright cruel.