During a panel discussion in June of 2014 – four months after the toppling of Viktor Yanukovych in Ukraine – Professor John Mearsheimer was asked whether Ukrainians have a right to choose to join the West. His emphatic answer, which provoked laughter from his fellow panellists, was: “No, they don’t.”
This gets to the very heart of the current crisis. Those who deny the West bears any responsibility insist that we must uphold the principle that every state is sovereign and can enter whichever alliances it chooses. Now, this sounds very appealing. But there’s one major problem with it.
The problem is that the US – by far the most important Western country – has blatantly and repeatedly violated this principle over the last five decades. Hence if the West wants to make any kind of normative argument against Russia’s aggression, it has to explain why it doesn’t hold itself to the same standards.
This point was made eloquently by Robert Wright in a recent essay titled ‘In Defense of Whataboutism’. As he notes:
Exercises in whataboutism force people to mount what Singer calls “a disinterested defense of one’s conduct.” They have to articulate a general rule—or a general exception to a general rule—that applies to everyone in comparable circumstances.
Since there’s no “general rule” under which America’s foreign policy would be justified but Russia’s foreign policy would not be, the West cannot mount a “disinterested defence” of its conduct. (I suppose certain countries like Iceland might be able to, but the US – the only one that really matters – certainly can’t.)
So the West doesn’t actually uphold the principle that every state is sovereign and can enter whichever alliances it chooses. Once this is established, the question arises, ‘Is Ukraine one of those states that can’t enter whichever alliances it chooses?’
The Russians believe it is, and have made clear that Ukraine joining the West is an absolute red line for them. How should the West have dealt with this ultimatum?
Well, the policy it did adopt was to ignore Russia’s ultimatum, and actively support the movement that overthrew Ukraine’s pro-Russian government in 2014. This instantly led to Putin annexing Crimea, and the outbreak of the war in Donbass. Is there anything it could have done instead?
Yes, it could have adopted the policy John Mearsheimer put forward, which is based on accepting that Ukraine is one of those states that can’t enter whichever alliances it chooses.
His proposal comprised three main elements: ruling out NATO membership for Ukraine; funding an economic rescue plan, together with Russia and the IMF; and insisting that Ukraine respect minority rights, especially minority language rights. (Note: these were abolished by the country’s Constitutional Court in 2018.)
Now, it’s possible that Mearsheimer’s policy would simply not have worked – that even if it had been followed, we’d still be where we are today. However, the policy seems far more sensible, and far more likely to work, than the one Western leaders decided to pursue instead.
As he noted prohphetically in 2015, “The West is leading Ukraine down the primrose path and the end result is that Ukraine is going to get wrecked.”
To join in with the discussion please make a donation to The Daily Sceptic.
Profanity and abuse will be removed and may lead to a permanent ban.
Nicely stated Noah.
Russia, along with the other BRICs are a welcome, if not unusually flavoured panacae to the current WEFmess the rest of the Western world finds themselves under.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1W5o3Xz5OI
Africa, South America and Asia are very lukewarm on ‘the sanctions’.
https://thesaker.is/war-in-ukraine-the-whole-world-is-with-us-and-with-whom-is-us-with-kiev-or-with-moscow/
The WEF remains lurking in the background of the Ukraine mess as well. The “journalist” who cried to Boris at a podium on television the other day begging for the UK to be dragged into war is no ordinary journalist. Turns out she is one of Schwab’s and WEF’s “Global Leaders”.
https://thenationalpulse.com/2022/03/01/the-crying-journalist-demanding-boris-drags-britain-to-war-is-a-biden-linked-world-economic-forum-global-leader/
This article is of course correct, and it’s astonishing how high a proportion of the general public don’t seem to understand the situation – not helped of course by the tabloids which are currently leading with anti-Russian warmongering rhetoric.
With those who don’t understand, it’s often useful to ask them how they think the US would respond if Canada or Mexico were to try to form a close alliance with Russia – with some people, actually thinking about this will cause the penny to drop (not all, of course…)
I think some people see the equivalence between what the Russians are doing and what the US and allies including UK have done in the recent past, but are pretty hard-nosed about it, but most either conveniently forget that we’ve waged similar wars or more commonly just think all of those wars were justified whereas the Russian one isn’t. And then I think there are people who have been consistently anti-war, whose position seems more honourable to me.
Off-Guardian did an excellent piece on the MSM coverage of this. The last few paragraphs are particularly relevant to thinkers and sceptics, on how the propaganda machine is pivoting from one issue to another:
https://off-guardian.org/2022/03/04/ukraine-coverage-reveals-wests-inherent-racism/
Thanks for that link, that really is a good article
Yes indeed.
In order to condemn this action in the withering terms that are expected of us all, one has to pretend that history started last week and that countries that aren’t the US or UK aren’t allowed to have their own foreign policies. It’s the failure to even discuss the matter objectively that is so appalling. It’s all very well criticising Russia, but at least acknowledge what is actually going on. I’m sure when the Cuban Missile Crisis was happening, the populations of both superpowers understood what the position of the other side was – now in the Era of Enforced Stupidity we aren’t even allowed to know or talk about that. In the West, we are setting ourselves up to fail hard. Or someone else is.
Actually, the US still have channels open to talk with the Russians – not Biden to Putin, but certainly channels associated with military security….
Good piece. What’s significant is just how out of step such basic sense is with the Official Truth in the US sphere, and how socially unacceptable it is to make this point, in most circles.
Whatever happened to realpolitik?
Realpolitik only works in the USA when they win.
On the same broad topic, there’s a lot of propaganda nonsense talked in our media about the question of how the Russian operation in the Ukraine is going, with a lot of claims that it’s going badly for them. Here’s a (rather rare) piece of relative sanity in the US sphere mainstream media making some important points. He misses, imo, one major part of the operation which appears to be directed at pinning and encircling the significant Ukrainian forces facing Donbas. The latter have some of the best equipment and the nastiest, most murderous nationalist types, who have been shelling civilians in the separatist regions because they hate them. I suspect they will receive scant quarter from the Russians.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10569141/Putin-NOT-crazy-Russian-invasion-NOT-failing-writes-military-analyst-BILL-ROGGIO.html
But for the time the op is taking, I think it’s easy to miss the sheer scale of what the Russians are doing there. Ukraine is vast, and the front the Russians are actively fighting on (intended to stretch the Ukrainian defenders, undoubtedly) is immense: Kiev-Kharkov-Luhansk-Mariupol-Odessa, nearly 1500km. The equivalent of a front stretching from John O’Groats to Land’s End and then back to London.
And cities like Kiev and Kharkov are not villages, but vast metropolises. Nearly 3m in Kiev, 1.4m in Kharkov – more than Birmingham. Even Mariupol is nearly the size of Sheffield.
Given the Ukrainians have been supplied over the past few years with large amounts of modern AT and AA weapons by NATO, and modern drone tech, you don’t operate carelessly on such scales!
It’s still fairly poor weather in the Ukraine, and a Spring offensive on land nowadays is as likely to be affected to some extent by the conditions prevailing, as were previous historical campaigns.
The essence of an alliance is mutual benefit. I have to ask what is the advantage to the other members of NATO to admitting Ukraine.
The only one I can see is the ability to site weapons on a large part of Russia’s European border. Otherwise the alliance is effectively Ukraine outsourcing its defence to other counties.
Carrying out illegal bioweapons research a long way away from self-righteous Western oversight?
Yes here are two relevant links about that.
https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/sections-offices/defense-threat-reduction-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/
Biological Threat Reduction ProgramHome | Embassy | U.S. Embassy Kyiv | Sections & Offices | Defense Threat Reduction Office |
Biological Threat Reduction Program
The U.S. Department of Defense’s Biological Threat Reduction Program collaborates with partner countries to counter the threat of outbreaks (deliberate, accidental, or natural) of the world’s most dangerous infectious diseases. The program accomplishes its bio-threat reduction mission through development of a bio-risk management culture; international research partnerships; and partner capacity for enhanced bio-security, bio-safety, and bio-surveillance measures. The Biological Threat Reduction Program’s priorities in Ukraine are to consolidate and secure pathogens and toxins of security concern and to continue to ensure Ukraine can detect and report outbreaks caused by dangerous pathogens before they pose security or stability threats.
https://ua.usembassy.gov/embassy/kyiv/sections-offices/defense-threat-reduction-office/biological-threat-reduction-program/
Biological Threat Reduction ProgramHome | Embassy | U.S. Embassy Kyiv | Sections & Offices | Defense Threat Reduction Office | Biological Threat Reduction Program
The U.S. Department of Defense’s Biological Threat Reduction Program collaborates with partner countries to counter the threat of outbreaks (deliberate, accidental, or natural) of the world’s most dangerous infectious diseases. The program accomplishes its bio-threat reduction mission through development of a bio-risk management culture; international research partnerships; and partner capacity for enhanced bio-security, bio-safety, and bio-surveillance measures. The Biological Threat Reduction Program’s priorities in Ukraine are to consolidate and secure pathogens and toxins of security concern and to continue to ensure Ukraine can detect and report outbreaks caused by dangerous pathogens before they pose security or stability threats.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-china-nikolai-patrushev-vladimir-putin-biological-weapons-1581896
Russian President Vladimir Putin‘s chief security adviser has said Moscow has “good reason to believe” the U.S. is developing biological weapons along the borders of Russia and China
“We and our Chinese partners have questions. We are told that there are peaceful sanitary and epidemiological stations near our borders, but for some reason, they are more more reminiscent of Fort Detrick in Maryland, where Americans have been working in the field of military biology for decades.”
He added that the authorities in those jurisdictions had “no real idea of what is happening within their walls,” and that there were outbreaks “uncharacteristic for these regions” in neighboring areas—although he did not specify any disease.
Any ‘benefit’ of being in NATO is inversely proportional to the country’s distance from Washington DC. In this case a Ukrainian leader with the best interests of their country at heart would not be so keen on spouting the prepared and often contrary script that Zelensky is doing – day in day out. Having US-NATO Nuclear weapons on one’s soil (as Zelensky has openly requested on 19th Feb) does not mean having access to the missile codes, but it does mean that Ukraine becomes a primary nuclear target.
Ukraine would not be outsourcing its defence, but simply being used as a US-NATO outlier to take the first hits in any conflict, whether it was involved in the precipitating conflict or not. This is because art.5 works both ways, and effectively coalesces NATO into one sovereign state, underlined by Stoltenberg recently talking about “NATO borders”, not the sovereign borders of member countries making individual strategic defensive decisions.
In addition any strategic advantage to US-NATO of having its missiles a few minutes closer to Moscow is also offset by the parallel reduction in ‘think time’ in the case of a false nuclear alarm (of which there have been several over the last decade that we know about). With hypersonic weaponry there’s no time for a cigar.
These points, of course, are not exhaustive.
Economically, agro might actually have been the biggest factor and benefit for and behind US involvement here.
Monsanto seems to have played some pivotal roles.
Strategically, it could be hubris and ignorance, but I am coming around to the more extreme views that this has been instigated with the deliberate intention of just that happening, killing German/Russian cooperation as desired by the Brzeszinskis, increasing military spending hugely and for a long time (man, has that worked out well and quickly!) and possibly leading to regime change and a Western takeover of Russia and its resources.
(All empires need to expand, otherwise they implode, there’s a good Rubikon article on that today.)
Personally, I think the latter is unrealistic and deluded, but that probably makes it even more likely that our current lot of politicians really think so.
The MIC, blob&co needed Russia to remain the enemy post 1990 and therefore, criminally, rejected its overtures then.
Now, the West has created China as its new monster enemy.
Therefore, it would very much like to have a regime-changed Westernized Russia now (which would now also lead to only more MIC spending in hard $s rather than to a reduction due to the China threat), but the only thing it has achieved sofar through its provocations is driving it further away from that and into the arms of China.
Whether that disastrous consequence was even contemplated is again questionable in light of our current lot of politicians and ‘experts’ intelligence.
There is also an interesting article by Jung-Freud at unz which delves into who might really call the shots, but that is extreme and verboten speculation, however plausible it might sound.
….. possibly leading to regime change and a Western takeover of Russia and its resources.
(All empires need to expand, otherwise they implode, there’s a good Rubikon article on that today.)
Personally, I think the latter is unrealistic and deluded, but that probably makes it even more likely that our current lot of politicians really think so.
The MIC, blob&co needed Russia to remain the enemy post 1990 and therefore, criminally, rejected its overtures then.
Yes I agree, these are my fears. I hope Russia can hold out.
In the middle of a financial meltdown, Russia’s natural resources will come in handy.
I am pretty sure the West will set up some atrocity in Ukraine if it can, similar to what it tried to do in Syria, in order to increase the pressure on Putin.
The Russians have at least had practice in containing these provocations.
Like you I believe the US/NATO neoconservatives have overreached themselves. I doubt they can achieve their plans.
https://tass.com/world/1416593
The Ukrainian army may have hit the neo-Nazi Azov battalion’s HQ in Mariupol with a missile strike.
I’ve tried your link and received the message ‘This site can’t be reached.’
I can’t reach it either from Nevada. TASS is the Russian AP. More censorship, I suppose, by our masters in “free” countries. I can’t load RT.com either. They really don’t want us to see the Russian point of view.
Here it is for you
DONETSK, March 4. /TASS/. The Ukrainian army’ conflict with the nationalist detachment Azov has resulted in a missile strike against the nationalists’ command center in the southwest of Mariupol, the deputy commander of the Donetsk People’s Republic’s militia, Eduard Basurin, told a news briefing on Friday.
“Contradictions between the Ukrainian army’s command and the nationalist groups have developed into a direct confrontation. After the commander of the operational tactical group East, Lieutenant General Sodol, suffered lethal wounds in a clash with Azov militants, who also refused to obey any orders from and coordinate operations with the Ukrainian army’s command the headquarters of the special purpose detachment Azov in the southwest of Mariupol was hit by the Ukrainian army’s missile Tochka-U,” he said.
Basurin also said on the Rossiya-1 television channel that the Tochka-U missile, fired by the Ukrainian army, destroyed 10 vehicles and left 20 soldiers of the Azov detachment killed.
Earlier, Basurin said that according to DPR intelligence sources, General Sodol had suffered serious wounds due to uncoordinated actions by the regular army and Azov nationalists. The commander’s vehicle came under fire while passing a road block.
“How should the West have dealt with this ultimatum?
Well, the policy it did adopt was to ignore Russia’s ultimatum, and actively support the movement that overthrew Ukraine’s pro-Russian government in 2014. This instantly led to Putin annexing Crimea, and the outbreak of the war in Donbass.”
And, crucially for the current events, “the West” adopted a policy of de facto NATO-isation of the Ukraine, with accelerated modern arms deliveries in the past few years, as Mearsheimer points out.
“In the fall of last year, 2021, it began to ramp up, and of course early this year…it became a full blown crisis. And the question that we want to ask ourselves is: what happened here? Why all of a sudden did this crisis go from the back burner to the front burner? And the answer is that the US and its allies were effectively turning Ukraine into a de facto member of NATO”
https://youtu.be/Nbj1AR_aAcE?t=785
Can’t the USA take “no” for an answer?
As in, “No, you can’t have Sevastopol as a base for your navy”, and “No, you can’t have airbases on the Ukrainian-Russian border.”
Too used to getting their way on everything, and getting off consequence-free when it blows up. They are an Empire now, and they create their own reality when they act.
Like most people who read that passage when it appeared in The New York Times Magazine two weeks before Bush’s re-election in October 2004, I scoffed. So much hubris! So much delusion! No wonder these bozos invaded Iraq and made such a mess of the place!
and “no, you can’t build and run bio-weapons facilities in a sovereign country away from the prying eyes of US Oversight”
The problem with the USA is that no-one has flattened ‘The School of the Americas’, where death squads the world over have been trained for 50 years. No-one has carried out ‘Operation Shock N Awe’ over the San Francisco Bay area, flattening the entire infrastructure and killing a million people.
No-one has bombed all the major dams in the USA in springtime, guaranteeing that tens of millions will be without water during the Mediterranean-style summer of drought.
And no-one has, more importantly, assassinated some US politicians to teach them they are so expendable, it’s not even worth debating.
In other words, they live in a bubble of fantasy land, never having been taught the lessons they need to learn to behave properly in the adult world.
Or in three non-academic words: pot, kettle, black.
Whoever thought the west was the homeland of peace and truth and being nice to everyone?
Right, now when and where is the next academic conference and what entertainments will be laid on in the evenings?
If you pock a bear with a stick then expect to be mauled. Actions have consequences and the way the EU and NATO have provoked Russia in the past, then I don’t blame Russia for making a stand now their enemy is weak.
My main concern is if China is just sitting on the sidelines eying up the opposition to see how weak or strong the west actually is before their crack at the title.
The trouble with military alliances is that, as events in 1914 demonstrated, they have the capability to turn minor regional skirmishes into world wars with horrific consequences.
Indeed, Mearsheimers talks have been very instructive. Martin Armstong raises simiar points in his latest post, offering a pragmatic basis for a solution.
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/war/the-markets-are-on-the-edge/
The lack of conversation regarding solutions to the current mess, especially from our leaders, is very disconcerting.
The current denounciations and demonisation, with a complete disregard of history, and nothing in the way of solution, seems designed to push the world into WWIII.
Look at our leadership. Western leaders, as a class, have never before in history been so mediocre.
This thesis suffers from the same disingenuous position of branding as an ‘anti vaxxer’ anyone who speaks out against vaccine mandates or in favor of natural immunity.
It is a perfectly legitimate position to agree that the ‘western’ response is hypocritical BUT that now is not the time to trying to justify and excuse the action of a totalitarian despot who has invaded a sovereign country, threatens nuclear war and is committing war crimes.
There was a time and place for a public debate on NATO or partitioning Ukraine as happened in Ireland. There will be again. However many people, especially those with family and friends in Ukraine, believe that now is not that time as it is handing a propaganda coup to Putin. The comments section of TDS on this issue is like manna from heaven to Putin’s psyop and propaganda machine.
Such public displays of dissent and disunity at this time may well also be greasing the wheels of China’s likely invasion of Taiwan.
Of course attempts to find compromise and build a platform for a ceasefire and withdrawal of invading troops must be encouraged. For now these should be had in private by actors who can actually make them happen.
There is a time for ‘whataboutism’. Just not now. All public hand wringing does during this time of war is embolden the aggressor who will find succor in any attempt by outsiders to justify his act of war.
This is basically an argument for giving the aggressor what he wants and punishing the victim for responding.
It also, in practice, just maintains the underlying problem. We’ll fight to defeat (if we do) the victim, and then of course the promised discussion of how we got into the position of having to fight will be sidelined, because it’s never in the interests of the powerful and the victors to discuss constraints on their future actions.
We’ll be far too busy having self-congratulatory propaganda fests about just how evil the defeated enemy was, and turning up all kinds of “evidence” of his supposed racism, homophobia, etc, and nefarious plans to slaughter everyone with exotic chemicals coincidentally just like ones we have ourselves at Porton Down.
And it will all happen again.
“This thesis suffers from the same disingenuous position of branding as an ‘anti vaxxer’ anyone who speaks out against vaccine mandates or in favor of natural immunity.”
No, it doesn’t.
My intention is not to give the aggressor what he wants. My intent is exactly the opposite. It is not to give the aggressor any reason to believe that his propaganda, true or not, is strengthening his position in the battlefield or in the court of public opinion. There will be a time and place to examine the causes of this invasion, just not now. Now we should be doing everything we can to pressure Putin to the negotiating table and show explicit support for The Ukrainian people.
FTR nobody has posted “Russian Propaganda” as far as I’ve seen. It’s mostly been well sourced, though obviously there’s a fair bit of conjecture too.
If there has been any “Propaganda” it’s been from those just repeating MSM poitions trying to counter analisys of realpolitik.
Define aggressor.
The US has explicitly stated that they want to destabilise Russia and cause regime change.
They have also called for Putin’s assassination.
We had the discussion wrt the Gulf War – it cost millions and was called the Chilcott Report. It named names, and blamed blames – and was promptly buried and business as usual took us into other countries, if more clandestinely.
“committing war crimes”.
Evidence please.
Targeting civilians, as in apartment blocks, is a war crime.
evidence please
or will you stuff your head up your arse and shout lalalalalala when you read that Ukranian forces themselves have shelled the Azov Regiment for ignoring orders and continuing to fire on Donbass….?
Marks right, there has been targetting of civillian areas
https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/new/
Was anyone prosecuted for destroying Dresden?
or Belgrade
Then the media will all shout “they’re bombing the school!”
Oh please get real. Do you honestly think that if everyone in the West fell into line behind the establishment ‘Putin is double plus bad, we must destroy him’ line that once the crisis was over there would be an ounce of contemplation given to the West’s role in all of this? Of course not, there would be no-one prepared to admit we had any sort of culpability whatsoever in the whole tragedy.
You only have to look at the establishment line thats emerging on covid now its all ending, they’re all pretending they had nothing to do with lockdowns and restrictions, and the destruction of personal freedoms, and the disruption of hundreds of millions of lives. They most certainly aren’t going to instigate any sort of post hoc analysis of exactly who did what and whether it was the right thing or not.
Now is the time to point out the West’s hypocrisy, not when its all done and dusted and the closet hiding all the skeletons will be firmed locked again.
At no time have I suggested ‘falling in line with the Putin is bad and we must destroy him’ rhetoric. What I wrote was that there is a time for debating the cause of this invasion, (other than that Putin is a totalitarian despot) and even engaging in ‘whataboutism’. Just not now. A Sceptic with a closed mind and a self-perpetuating narrative is no Sceptic at all.
See what you did there Clive?
Do not debate what I say NOW. Debate it when I tell you. You may debate other things. Apply here.
Quite an extraordinary position.
An Editor with a closed mind and a self-perpetuating narrative is no Editor at all.
If you don’t debate the reason, you cannot come up with a solution.
Yes you have suggesting falling in line, you’ve said now is now the time, so shut up, in effect. When am I to be allowed to point out the West’s manifest failings and utter hypocrisy?
I have a simple question for you – if Russia were proposing a defence and soldarity pact with Mexico, and proposing to station forces there, do you think the USA would stand for ‘the democratic right of the Mexican people to choose’ or would their forces be into Mexico and installing a friendly regime faster than you could say ‘Speedy Gonzales’?
Clive Pinder says readers of TDS should not discuss this. They are a public display of disunity, hand wringing and it’s not the time and the place. Only private discussions should be allowed by actors who can actually make them happen.
It’s a short step to banning all free speech and discussion on any non-agenda topic among the proles. Would he like those who don’t bang the drum for Ukraine enthusiastically to be temporarily imprisoned, perhaps have their bank accounts frozen?
What utter nonsense.
“Clive Pinder says readers of TDS should not discuss this. “
Not in a coercive manner, I don’t think. He’s saying we ought not to adopt this position, for the reasons he gave. It’s a subtle distinction, perhaps, but quite important,especially coming from a site administration position.
Admittedly, his position could easily be extended in the direction you describe, but he has not done so yet and may not.
Mark, thank you for having an open mind understanding the nuance in my position, and rest assured I will not ‘extend my position’. I subscribe to the idea that a Sceptic with a closed mind and a self-perpetuating narrative is no Sceptic at all!
You’re very welcome.
The position of DS and its management is really quite remarkable so far, given that the owner clearly does not like or agree with the sceptical position on this issue that seems to be prevailing (mostly, not universally) btl.
The site has been very fair in publishing quite strong dissenting pieces atl as well.
Truly fulfilling the title role, so far!
What on earth is ‘remarkable’ about a site established (one imagines) to espouse scepticism and free speech actually permitting free speech and scepticism in the comments?
Anything other than that would be bizarre.
Any comments by the Editor to the effect that you can say what you want but not NOW seems to me be something else altogether.
“What on earth is ‘remarkable’ about a site established (one imagines) to espouse scepticism and free speech actually permitting free speech and scepticism in the comments?“
Having engaged in controversial discussion on the internet since there was an internet to do so on, and frequently in ostensibly free speech sites of various kinds usually run by self-proclaimed “free speech hardliners”, who as often as not folded when their own pet issues were in the cross-hairs, I can tell you from experience that it’s quite remarkable when one of them sticks to his principles when issues that he finds particularly uncomfortable become the main topic.
“Free speech” invariably means speech within the window of what the site ownership/admin regards as acceptable. The issue is when and to what degree the bounds of acceptability become political.
I did not say that at all. In fact I said exactly the opposite. Here is what I wrote. “There was a time and place for a public debate on NATO or partitioning Ukraine as happened in Ireland. There will be again.” By all means disagree, but please don’t indulge in the practices of main stream media by making false statements to suit your own narrative. A Sceptic with a closed mind or a self-perpetuating narrative is no Sceptic at all.
Actually I do not understand why we cannot debate this.
We are not at war with Russia. They have not attacked us.
Ukraine is not an ally. It is not in NATO
In other words the UK is neutral.
So why is it necessary to silence debate? You have asked us to pull together, as if this were a moment to take a national patriotic stand, and as if ill-timed dissent were putting our national security at risk.
We have nothing at stake in this military action.
The Republic of Ireland is supposedly neutral too. Yet our esteemed fuhrer has told us that we need to deal with rising fuel costs because “we are on a war footing”. Huh?
And Clive, once we’ve denounced and condemned and vilified and criticised and raged against Putin as you suggest, then are we allowed to discuss the geopolitical context and historical causes of this conflict?
This
thesispost suffers from the same disingenuous position of branding asan
‘anti vaxxer’appologist anyone who speaks out againstvaccine mandateswestern hypocricyorin favor ofnatural immunity.analisys of realpolitik.It is a perfectly legitimate position to agree that the ‘western’ response is hypocritical BUT that now is not the time to trying to justify and excuse the action of a totalitarian western installed puppet who has
invaded a sovereign country, censored oppersion by taking oppositional TV stations off air, murdered desenting journalists, legalized sectrainism, encouraged and supplied far right openly Nazi goups,threatensthreatened nuclear war by raising the possibility of revising the Budapest Memorandum andishascommittingcommitted war crimes in the Donbas killing >14,000 civillians. All supported by the West.FTFY
No, there won’t be, if we ignore history, and fail to discuss workable solutions, NOW, this story will end in WWIII and this little part of it will have as much discussion in the historically revised MSM as the reichstag fire does today.
Nonsense, opinion in Ukraine seems as divided now as it was prior to the invasion, many blame Zelensky & the West for current events as much as Putin. Look at the election result spreads, the poll on joining NATO was against joining. I very much doubt Putins machine reads TDS comments, so you last sentence is ridiculous posturing.
As if China reads TDS comments either. China may well be emboldened by the lack of western adult response, a position you seem comfortable with.
If anyone is paying attention to TDS comments, then we should be all the more vociferous, the only thing that will bring some sanity to our leaders is informed public outrage, we don’t get there without becoming informed, something it seems you would prefer.
There you go again, claiming sceptical discussion of events is justification of events. Would you prefer we all disclaimer our posts with the equivilant of “I’m not an anti-vaxer BUT”?
What I’d like to see is some adult conversation discussing solutions, taking into account views from all sides of the conflict, without that we’re heading only to one destination, WWIII.
I recall many of the same arguments being levelled at those of us who wanted to understand the truth of where the Covid virus came from: “What difference does it make, there’s a pandemic on now!”
Oh for Gods sake…what rubbish!
The Russians have a right to geostrategic security. Why is that difficult to understand? They are a vast land-based country, they need secure borders.
Totally agree, Clive. The attempts by many on here to deny, downplay or excuse what Putin is doing are simply inhumane.
Here are some crucial facts which apply to the recent creation and oversight of American foreign policy … …
Barack Obama was a “manchurian president”, groomed and run by Bill Ayers, “handled” by Valerie Jarrett, put into the WH by an alliance which stretched across the international media. His Administration was covertly run by a clique of extreme left-wings.
Trump was elected by (1) an immature but widespread infatuation with social media, and (2) by a widespread revulsion against Hillary. He wasn’t a President, not in any manner. The problem was the content of his character. His brashness is merely a product of it. Deep inside, he’s a little boy (a) still afraid of his father, and (b) hedonistic to an irrational extreme.
Biden was elected in revulsion against Trump. Biden’s been a fluffball ever since he managed to get into the Senate in the 70s — the GOP ticket was fractured, and woozy Joe was superb as a glad-hander.
GW Bush had his issues (Paul Bremer being catastrophic) but he was Presidential. He was the last President we’ve had.
“GW Bush had his issues (Paul Bremer being catastrophic) but he was Presidential. He was the last President we’ve had.”
ROFL! That’s the Bush that made the worst foreign policy blunder your country had made since Vietnam. A crime every bit as illegal as the current Russian operation in the Ukraine, and many, many times as murderous.
Trump had his flaws, without a doubt, but he was the best, most American President since Reagan, by a long chalk. Probably the reason (along with population growth of course) why he got by far the biggest number of Americans to vote for him – in a reelection campaign when they knew exactly what they were getting – of any other candidate in history bar his senile opponent’s rigged count. And that in the teeth of probably the most powerfully biased media and social media campaign in history.
That’s also the Bush who spoke like your current senile old twit, but without the excuse of being actually senile:
https://youtu.be/8Ux3DKxxFoM
We shall agree (hopefully) to disagree.
You don’t want to get into a formal debate with me on this topic.
I’m your huckleberry.
Though admittedly it would be rather a diversion from the more urgent issues of the moment.
Another time, then.
Great film.
I’m not convinced about the legitimacy of the election but I do agree, Trump although effective was not “presidential” whatever that means.
wrong on all counts
Dubya? Presidential? I’ve had diarrhoea that was more presidential. It’s impossible to misunderestimate the extent to which he was not presidential. You are correct about one thing though. The Clinton – Trump presidential race showed just how broken American politics is. And it’s getting worse, if that is possible.
I an concerned that the US will fall apart internally as it is facing economic collapse.
perhaps one reason why it needs to get its hands on Russia’s resources.
GW Bush carried out the 9/11 attacks on his own population.
Not a president to my mind.
In England, we cut off Charles 1st’s head on the grounds that he had invaded and attacked his own people. That makes a government invalid.
I really don’t think he was involved in 9/11.
Cheney and Rumsfeld? Yes.
Norman Mineta? No.
No you are right, of course…… He was reading a book about ?goats? to schoolchildren at the time.
…..That was his administration. He takes the rap.
he Ukraine invasion certainly is a good opportunity for governments to bury unwanted news Covid lockdowns weren’t needed, finds inquiry in the country that stayed open (msn.com)
Yes indeed, several really important bits of unwanted news, ( about vaxxes killing young people and injuring children for life, among other things ), plus stave off the increasingly imminent financial crash by printing lots more money under cover of war/military aid expenses.
And the timing of this war was probably controlled by US/NATO influences on the Ukraine and statements about aims in that country, escalating up until last month’s references to installing nuclear weapons in Ukraine … but it may be meant, by globalist interests, to actually backfire on/weaken the west.
The West claims that Ukraine is not neo-nazi or fascist as they only received 2.1% of the vote in the 2019 parliamentary elections.
However, the fascists are directly embedded within Ukrainian government, military and society and nothing is done, including Zelinsky’s decisions, without their approval.
The fascist paramilitary units control the streets and are also embedded within the police.
“Watch Yevhen Karas the leader of Ukraine’s neo-Nazi terror gang C14’s speech from Kiev earlier this month (Feb 2022).
Straight from the horses’ mouth, he dispels the many narratives pushed by the left, the mainstream media and the State Department.”
Alex Rubinstein
Yevhen Karas claims:
– Ukraine is being armed as pawns of the West because “we have fun killing”
– “We have started a war”
– “We have the most Javelins on the European continent”
– The European family has already collapsed
– Maidan would’ve been a “gay parade” if not for Nazi influence
– We are doing the tasks set by the West
– Although we neo-nazis were only 8% of the Maidan riots we were responsible for 98% of the outcome.
C14 was started as the youth wing of the Svoboda party, founded by Oleh Tyahnybok, pictured with Joe Biden in April 2014.
C14 signed an agreement with Kiev’s city government to patrol its streets in early 2018. Months later it began a campaign of pogroms against Romani camps.
The “14” in C14 refers to 14 words coined by American neo-Nazi David Lane “We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children.”
https://t.co/VWJqWPUGUp
More here ……
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfaAyiP8Wuc
“Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine”
Five years after the Maidan uprising, anti-Semitism and fascist-inflected ultranationalism are rampant.
By Lev Golinkin
FEBRUARY 22, 2019
https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/neo-nazis-far-right-ukraine/
The fascist Ukrainian army with orders from it’s supposedly centrist government has been shelling The Donbass for the last 8 years.
Russian actions in Ukraine are a bulwark against US/NATO aggression but proving to people that Ukraine is currently run by fascists are not helped by the 2019 election results or talk of “denazification” when the President and Prime Minister are both Jewish.
If it talks like a fascist, walks like a fascist and acts like a fascist then it’s a fascist regardless of what happened in the 2019 election result and regardless of whether the President or Prime Minister are Jewish or not.
In addition, as was reported today on UK Column, the fascists in Ukraine are controlling refugee movement and limiting it to whites only. Fascism is embedded into the post 2014 Ukrainian state, the main party has been banned from standing in elections, shelling ethnic Russians has been officially sanctioned by the Kyiv regime for 8 years; leading to 14,000 civilian deaths in the Donbass (UN figures).
So when Western athletes drape themselves in the Ukrainian flag to show solidarity, or happy-clappy EU politicians give standing ovations to the stooge Zelensky (or UK parliament clapping the Ukrainian ambassador) are they not simply siding with an openly neo-Nazi regime just as much as draping a Nazi flag around themselves or returning a Nazi salute in the pre-war 1930s? Would the equivalent of Speaker Lindsay Hoyle sporting a Ukrainian ribbon in the House of Commons in 2022 be Speaker Edward FitzRoy sporting a swastika armband in 1938? And if the Nazi ideology was wrong in the 1930s, surely, it’s wrong now? Questions like these must be asked to gain some perspective, no matter how unthinkable or uncomfortable. Thankfully many avowed BTL sceptics on this site have taken time to research the events that led to where we are, instead of (like Toby) falling hook, line and sinker for the official Zelensky GOOD Putin BAD narrative. So perhaps after this latest bloody episode in European history at the very least we should have (one way or another) a definitive answer to that much asked question – ‘why didn’t anyone stop Hitler and rise of fascism in Europe?’
This vote at the UN should be raising eybrows at least:
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2021/12/protecting-the-nazis-the-extraordinary-vote-of-ukraine-and-the-usa/
Trying to find corroboration of this, but can only find repeats sourced at the same link, if true it looks like the “civil war” has escalated, or they’re sick of being Nazi adjacent:
https://tass.com/world/1416593
I’ve always liked Craig Murray.
Every year Russia has introduced a vote to the UN condemning fascism, every year the USA votes against it. And, as you probably are aware, Meta/Facebook has revised its anti-fascism policy to allow praise for the Azov Battalion for its exploits in the current conflict.
Of course Clegg must be involved in such a decision, but from a man happy at the UK’s neo-colonialist military actions military actions against the sovereign state of Libya that could be expected anyway.
I recall the BBC was well on board with that particular USA-led bombing adventure, ostensibly to prevent the setting up of a pan-African currency, with only one reporter (that I heard anyway) daring to question the narrative; pointing out the popular support Gadaffi enjoyed in the country amongst ordinary people who had benefited from housing, health and infrastructural investment.
Quite agree.
What could be more “fascist” than invading a weaker neighbouring country and killing thousands of civilians?
The Allied forces invaded neighbouring France in 1944 to rid that country of the Nazis who had killed millions of civilians.
The Allied forces weren’t fascist.
Putin and Lavrov have both said they want to denazify Ukraine.
The alternative media have shown that the right wing nationalists who are Nazi loving fascists are embedded in all strata of Ukrainian government who have killed thousands of ethnic Russians in Ukraine and have been shelling The Donbass for the last 8 years.
You and most other people have been brainwashed.
People see what they want to see: “Russia invaded Ukraine so he’s wrong on all counts, period”
It stops there for them. History began 2 weeks ago, it’s black and white, there is no grey, there is no prior history. There is no willingness to find out either, they don’t want to know anything outside this, they’re already emotionally programmed.
My wife gets all her news from her sister who spends 2 hours reading all the MSM every morning, she told me to be careful what I say because she overheard me talking to the Polish guy who delivered our oil this morning, he held the MSM view too, the conversation didn’t get emotional, he says he’s going to do a simple picture search for “Nazi Ukraine” and “Ukraine 2014 coup” tonight and do some reading on it. I hope he does.
I don’t think AHotston would do that.
Very true.
This article from yesterday explains the situation very well.
https://www.mintpressnews.com/ukraine-jewish-president-zelensky-made-peace-neo-nazi-paramilitaries/279862/?fbclid=IwAR23iLerjc2kU045zjjILge1EsNnrmjtXe312KI_HnN79Bv3fhixQVucjrE
Why in hell am I here?
Is there any way to get my registration cancelled? Removed?
“Why in hell am I here?”
Only you can answer that. But the best reasons for being here are that it’s a reasonably free forum to discuss contentious issues, and that it’s devoted to scepticism about the Official Truths that prevail in most of the mainstream.
If you’re looking for a place where everyone’s going to agree with you, without you having to do the work to persuade them, this probably ain’t it. So far, anyway.
“Is there any way to get my registration cancelled? Removed?”
Is it that hard just to point your browser elsewhere? Why do so many people seem to feel the need to make a drama out of people not agreeing with them?
Not trying to be hostile, I like a lot of what you’ve written here over the past while. But being able to cope with disagreement on emotive issues is rather a requirement for a sceptic forum, I’d have thought.
We all get stressed when other posters do not agree with our well made remarks.
All I know is, there’s a Russian family living down my street. The Mum & Dad leave their home in the morning in separate motors, the Dad ostensibly for ‘work’ (ha!), the Mum (ostensibly a ‘housewife’ – pfft!) taking two children to school, returning to ‘tend to the home’ (likely story!) It makes me deeply uncomfortable. Since, thankfully, Russians in general are fair game, and since, belatedly, we’ve become a nation of snides, who do I see about this suspicious Russian family?
Same dumb masses, different narrative.
What a nonsense. Putin’s goal is to restore the Soviet Union. The problem is that people in ex soviet empire countries (The Warsaw Pact included) living under puppet comunist dicatorships have only a minimal desire for something like that. After the collapse of the soviet empire they were always afraid of attemts to restore it. That is the reason they requested NATO membership and it’s their great victory (hopefully) that they got it. If Putin feared NATO expansion he should have behaved in a way that the surrounding states would not fear of him. As a result of his idiotic invasion of Ukraine he will probably get another NATO neighbor – Finland. He can only blame himself
Thank you The Daily Sceptic for publishing this piece. Here in Czechia they can sue you for something like it today
I think first you have to distinguish between non-Soviet former Warsaw pact states and former Soviet ones.
The former have a legitimate fear and reason to have joined NATO, the latter are much restricted in doing so.
Countries with significant Russian minorities can easily prevent Russian aggression, namely by treating this minority correctly.
Sadly, they mostly chose not to do so.
Ukraine in particular was and is used as a pawn and tool for provocation by the West, nothing else, don’t fool yourself about that.
Finland and Sweden would be well advised to stay neutral and have done quite well doing so.
The main reason for that these days is geography and distance due to the impact of hypersonic weapons.
Again, Cuba, the Monroe doctrine, the example of how the US would react if Mexico teamed up with Russia should make clear why Russia justifiably feels threatened by more NATO member neighbours (they also quite rightly fear the West’s frequent regime change ambitions and activities).
Why? The Soviet Union violently anexed parts of Finland, Baltics, parts of Poland, Czechoslovakia nad other. It gives Russia no right over those territories Should Czechia or Poland attack Russia because part of Ukraine used to be ours and Russia wanted to influence it?
We do understand this argument. But there’s a nice, English proverb Two wrongs don’t make a right. If the USA is proclaiming principles it’s not following itself, that’s (in this respect) a failure of the US government and – assuming these principles are supposed to be universal – not something which makes Russia also ignoring them somehow righter.
A historical perspective: The original Russian red line wrt NATO expansion was the territory of the former GDR and not-expansion into this territory was specifically promised to them. However, as the larger Warsaw Pact fell appart after 1991, this promise was shelved.
More general concern: In the end, this boils down to what the so-called West actually is. A community of countries with shared values, specifically, democracy, human rights and the preeminence of so-called international law. If it is, it must principally be open to every other country also committing to these principles, especially if threatened by another, (conjectured to be) more powerful country which doesn’t.
Or if it’s about the Realpolitik position which could be summarized as follows: All this lofty talk about values and principles is really nothing but lofty talk. The purpose of NATO, UNO etc is the eternal subjugation of the people living in central Europe, especially the eternal subjugation of the German people, and – if possible – their eventual extermination. In this case, Mission accomplished, Ukraine and the people living there can get lost. Who cares?
Indeed.
And there is actual, specific precedence of the US rejecting that a far away country not just joins a different alliance but can’t get neutrality either:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_Note
absolutely sickening how british mainstream media portrays this as a holy war of good v evil enticing young romantic brits to go and die on the battlefields. W/o NATO it’s at best a long partisan war with hundreds of thousands of casualties, devastating for Ukraine in the first place. It’s time the West, UK, US, NATO back down, accept that some of the Putin’s demands must be met as bad as it may sound. Sanctions are not going to affect the outcome of the war although might result in something in the long run. W/o denying that Putin is bad, it’s also NATO’s and the Wests fault. Ukraine was never a match for russia and it was always known that NATO would not be involved. NATO and the west really have blood on their hands how horrible it may sound.
An unprovoked attack on a country, killing thousands of civilians, is evil. If you think otherwise you need to do some serious soul-searching.
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2022/march/03/how-the-narcotic-of-defense-spending-undermines-a-sensible-grand-strategy
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2022/march/03/russia-ukraine-war-a-different-invasion-the-west-s-same-madman-script
This isn’t scepticism, it’s some kind of silly moral equivalence argument. Russia controlled Ukraine by force for decades and doesn’t get any say it what they do now.
A friend of mine received this today. Get ready to clang your pans, sorry, switch your lights off or something at 7 to show Putin something. How long before we have to do Two Minutes Hate?
The latest Jerm Warfare video interview.
https://war.jermwarfare.com/w/892y1VCz9VLAyJkegsjvraGg/f6eU48KLicrvTXoLWsGXTg/W1s3oDfVZOea1LM8922wjnaQ
Russell is also an accredited war correspondent, providing factual news and counter-propaganda about the situation in Ukraine and the Ukrainian government’s war against Donbass. He is trying to expose the US-backed regime in Kiev. Russell is also the vice president of Donbass Humanitarian Aid, a fund which has helped hundreds of innocent victims of the war since 2015.
In short, he is the real deal.
He joined me, last night, from a hotel in Donetsk, where he and his wife currently reside. His house, which is a few kilometres away, is in the line of Ukrainian fire, making living there simply too dangerous. A few hours before our conversation, a Ukrainian bomb exploded near the hotel.
Russell chatted to me about
Those are just a few of the talking points.
In short, he is a Russophile, not the “real deal”.
Yet you can’t offer a factual rebuttal of a single point raised. That’s on you bud.
Here are some useful links to sites where you can find fair coverage of the Ukraine situation.
https://www.strategic-culture.org/
https://consortiumnews.com/
https://www.moonofalabama.org/
https://thesaker.is/the-relatively-civilized-people-should-ally-themselves-with-the-uncivilized-ones/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVbrH09HYoQ&ab_channel=TheDuran
Good update on todays Ukraine situation from Mercouris
Can I make a serious plea to DS editorial staff. The Ukraine situation is not going to be changed one iota by this site. Its fate is entirely decided in Moscow and Washington.
However DS was set up initially to influence the UK and its response to covid, There is still much to be done in this area, it should not loose focus. Its effect on the UK Govt response affects other Govt’s response which can be very beneficial to millions around the world.
There needs to be refocus on the vaccines and the international/travel continuing restrictions which in many places mandate use of the mRNA vaccines.
Please DS more concentrated resources on the things we can affect directly.
I respectfully disagree, but will not be down ticking your comment. This is a forum for healthy debate, and I have always found your contributions positive and informative whether I agree with them or not. As such you can’t refocus or enforce diktats on scepticism, as Clive Pinder is also trying to do. To stifle scepticism is to kill it, and the BTL comments have long had an independent life of their own. This Ukrainian crisis has perhaps also made BTL self aware that it, not ATL, is the heartbeat of the website.
First off – they’re not vaccines, they’re Experimental Gene Therapy.
Secondly, this site (or LS as it was) failed miserably to oppose the vaxx roll out 12 months ago when it had the chance, and the mounting death and serious adverse reaction figures started rolling in. Despite pleas from many BTL commenters for editorial policy to reflect that ‘lockdown’ and the Big Pharma’s EGT were always two sides of the same coin.
Toby decided to sit on the fence on the vaxx issue – refusing to criticise his mate Boris. So, to use your words, the vaxx roll out was not ‘changed one iota by this site’, but that didn’t stop LS becoming a much needed hub for comments, with BTL links to other sources that DID start to raise awareness of the damage being done by the government’s vaxx policy – but sadly not before 90% of the adult population has fallen for the scam.
In May 2021 Toby published an article proclaiming that LS was NOT against the vaxx roll out per se, only lockdown. He refused to call out government policy or oppose those who were advocating jabbing kids. At that point (from then available figures) healthy kids with no co-morbidities stood up to 1000x chance of dying from the vaxx than C19 (this estimate has now been proved to have been conservative using available VAERS figures). DS still has this ‘neither pro nor anti vaxx’ stance written into the site description.
Despite the fence sitting editorial policy, the weight of adverse vaxx info became too much, and critical ATL vaxx articles began to appear more and more. This did not please some commenters BTL who, like Toby, wanted to live in a bubble where lockdown and mandatory vaxx were not joined at the hip – despite all the evidence to the contrary. Some even asked the site to drop vaxx articles, and refocus on lockdowns.
As we sleepwalk into a post C19 globalist WEF era, and as we have seen by the valiant efforts of the Canadian Truckers, the fight against further encroachment onto our much eroded liberties must continue on all fronts. This includes looking deeper into the underlying reasons for the Ukraine conflict that the MSM has not only shut out but actively censored. The impact of the raising of awareness on the Ukraine issue overall, and the dark underbelly of state fascism in particular, cannot be underestimated, if only to drag folks kicking and screaming away from going back to the cosy corporate sponsored MSM narrative that over the last two years has proved so toxic for truth (and life).
A puppy is not just for Xmas. Scepticism is not just for lockdown.
I enjoyed your response, I think the only thing I would disagree with is equating what I said with trying to enforce a diktat. That was not my aim. My target was ‘focus’. I think LS/DS have done a good job in focusing minds on issues over the last 2 years.I think there is a danger that our ‘leaders’ wish to distract using the situation in Ukraine, works. We need to make sure it doesn’t.
It a valid point, but I think both can be accomodated. TDS btl willingness to debate Ukraine has clearly subsided already, compare the previous Ukraine thread >400 comments, and this one with 119 so far.
Anyone still researching has got to the graphic details of 2014 by now, I’m finding a lot of dead links, the ptb have clearly been memory holing the events of the time, what I am finding is too graphic to put up, I can understand why nobody want to publish it.
This is pretty graphic, but it’s nothing to what went on inside the Trade Union House. Nothing much comes up on regular searches, it seems image seraching is more productive, following those to the source finds the links the search engines have scrubbed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZiJRnaom_E
Hi P, just to clarify. The diktat comment was not aimed at your comment but rather at earlier comments from Clive that tried to prescribe what a sceptical response should be. I said ‘As such you can’t refocus or enforce diktats on scepticism, as Clive Pinder is also trying to do.’
With hindsight my grammar was bit loose, and I should have said ‘As such one can’t refocus, or enforce diktats on scepticism, as Clive Pinder is trying to do.’ to remove any ambiguity. It was late….
Yes, there have been “Western” (I.e. American) interventions: Vietnam, Iraq for example), but how does that justify what Putin is doing in Ukraine?
Noah Carl appears to have crossed the line between sceptic and apologist.
Yes, I agree.
Geopolitical wokery – the equivalent of internet archaeology used to excuse the slaughter of thousands of people. Shameful.
Indeed, those >14,000 people shelled to death in the donbass have been conviniently swept under the carpet. And because of that it’s OK to fund Nazis now.
Ah yes, the 14,000 deaths recorded by the pro-Putin terrorists in Donbass – forgive me if I’m a bit “sceptical” about them, won’t you?!
sceptical in quotes just about sums up you “scetisim”. You refuse to look for anything that counters your emotionally programmed narrative.
History is longer than 2 weeks ago, go back and research the event of 2014 that caused the people of the Donbass to declare independance under international law.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZiJRnaom_E
https://uprootedpalestinians.wordpress.com/2014/05/11/neo-nazi-executions-of-unarmed-civilians-in-odessa-graphic-warning/
So does that mean EVERY state bordering Russia cannot choose? If so, that’s effectively a Russian dictatorship.
Did the Donbass have no right to choose when they recognised the post 2014 government had no legitimacy (with evidence) in accordance with international law.
Did Cuba have the right to arm it’s self with nuclear weapons in 1962?
Let us suppose Scotland gained independence, left NATO and announced it would allow Russian controlled nukes pointing at English, Welsh and Northern Irish targets to be placed along the border from Gretna to the Tweed. Do you still believe in your brand of laissez-faire sovereignty now?
As the saying goes, ‘the liberty of my fist ends where your nose starts’; with foreign controlled hypersonic nukes with ever shorter distances and flight times within a the duplicitous geopolitics of ‘American exceptionalism’ such a dictum must become (by necessity) a tad more nuanced. After all, why should Ukraine take the first nuclear strike on the USA’s behalf?
Likewise the benefit of NATO membership is always inversely proportional to the member country’s distance from Washington DC. Unfortunately no-one has informed Moldova and Georgia of this, as both have duly applied this week for NATO status. I wasn’t aware either of them had an Atlantic coastline
Clarification. Georgia and Moldova have officially applied this week for EU status, by doing so asking for closer ties to NATO. Currently neutral Finland and Sweden have announced they are considering applying for formal NATO membership.
The core problem is that if Russia was a democratic, free country playing its role in the free World then it wouldn’t care whether it’s neighbours were members of the likes of NATO or the EU, or not. Putin and his cronies are running a mafia type operation in Russia, stripping it clean for their benefit. That’s why they don’t want democratic countries as neighbours, in case their exploited citizens decide they want that type of governance, instead of a bunch of gangsters.