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It pays to look at both sides of the story.


lordsnooty
Posts: 585
Topic starter
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

We have become monomaniac in our veneration of Ukraine and condemnation of Russia. I fear that America is much more addicted to wars than Russia is , so let us briefly remind ourselves of US involvement in recent land wars in recent years.

War in Afghanistan (2001–2021),  result America flung out by Taliban

American intervention in Yemen,(2002–present) result, ongoing, thousands dead

Iraq War (2003–2011) result, retreat, tail between legs, no less that 100 thousand dead.

American intervention in the War in North-West Pakistan (2004–2018), not less than 2,00 dead.

Second U.S. Intervention in the Somali Civil War (2007–present), result - retreat tail firmly between legs, deaths:not less that 2,00 violent deaths.

International intervention in Libya (2011). result- killed the president, not less than 400 deaths.

The War in Afghanistan(2001–2021), result - retreat tail fimly between legs, not less that 6,000 deaths.

The list goes on for many more paes, many more are killed by evil American actiona, and plenty of Brits joined in the slaughter.It is just the way it is…

Good luck, but please always pay to look at both sides of the story, esp. when the west has such total control of the propaganda machine, please reread your George Orwell.

 

13 Replies
Fingal
Posts: 258
(@fingal)
Joined: 1 year ago

This is a selection of some of the things Russian media are claiming:

  • There is no war in Ukraine.
  • It's the Ukrainians bombing residential areas, not the Russians.
  • The Ukrainians are preventing their own families from escaping
  • The Ukrainians are welcoming Russian troops as liberating heroes.
  • The sanctions on Russian industry have nothing to with the invasion and would have happened anyway.
  • Ukrainians are committing genocide, using chemical weapons, developing nuclear bombs, etc etc

This is so stupid that it doesn't make any sense even in itself. If there's no war, how can there be any bombing?

Just hours before war began, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov was still saying that the troops on Ukraine's borders were on ordinary military exercises and we had no right to object.

This is the other side of the story that you, Snootski, think it's important for us to hear. Which bits do you claim to believe?

 

 

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9 Replies
lordsnooty
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

Posts: 585

 Posted by: @fingal

This is a selection of some of the things Russian media are claiming ...

 

So no condemnation of your friends in the US's war machine  for the many  pointless wars that they have done  with the help of your toadies  in London who slavishly follow America's  money.

wrt the elements of your list regarding the rights of Ukrainian Russian speakers to rule themselves.

  • There clearly is a war in Ukraine, caused i by Ukraine's paranoid hostility to Russian speakers within her own borders, evidenced by:
  • Antipathy or hostility towards Russian speakers rights. Ukraine's campaign of hostility against Ukrainian Russians that includes, but is not restricted to weakening the Russian language's role where much of the public speaks Russian. For example, it requires all films produced in Ukraine to be in Ukrainian and Russian ones  to be dubbed.
  • Antipathy or hostility towards self-determination for the Russian Speaking majority in East Ukraine. Evidenced by terrorist activity of the far-right nationalists - e.g. the state backed Azov Battalion, resulting in the death of 12,000 Russian speaking individuals in the Donbas between 2014 and the present day.
  •  failure to recognise the rights of the overwhelming majority of those in the Crimea and the Donbas , who decided in a referendum to split from Ukraine to become self governing.

ok, so that's half your list shot to shit, what else.

It is an established fact that, during the war in the Donbas, 

  • Shelling of Russian speakers by govt. forces occurred in Kramatorsk and Sloviansk, when  government forces retook a border crossing in Dolzhansk
  • It's an established fact, once Victoria Nuland announced it, that there are laboratories performing biological weapons research in or around Kiev that are financed by the US.
  • It's hypothetical what sanctions may have been applied in whatever circumstances. I suspect the endless westward creep  of NATO may have necessitated threats from the ever hostile and warlike  US.

Basically what you gleaned is mostly factual. Thanks for reminding me! You are a simple minded person, far too willing to absorb any and all lies pumped into you by the west's well oiled propaganda machine.

Basically, you are  a shill of the Industrial-Military Complex, which, I suspect, employs you. Since, in the words of Upton Sinclair - It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.That's you down to a T.

 

 

 

 

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Fingal
(@fingal)
Joined: 1 year ago

Posts: 258

@lordsnooty Some actual attempt at a serious argument here - good work!

  • You admit there's a war! We've reached first base.
  • We need to think about more than the last 10 years. There's such a long history of repression of non Russian languages by the Russian or Soviet empires. Many of Russia's neighbours, including Ukraine, bear the scars of that history. The problem we have today is Russia's imperial legacy. What do you think Putin is going to do if he gets control? Compulsory Russian everywhere.
  • Prior to Putin's 2014 proxy war, there was a pro Russian majority in both Crimea and the Donbass. But without Putin's encouragement and direct military help, there would have been no war, no breakaway.
  • The idea that Putin cares what local people think is a joke. Look what he did to Chechnya. Putin cares about popular majorities only on the rare occasion he actually has one.
  • Putin has made the same mistake as Saddam Hussein, when he tried for the whole of Kuwait instead just the Rumalia oilfield on the border (which he would have got away with). The seizure by Putin of an entire sovereign state, if permitted, unleashes wars of aggression across the globe. There's much more at stake than Putin here.
  • Putin has saved NATO from disbandment due to lack of interest. This will be remembered not just for the brutality, but also as one of the worst foreign policy blunders of all time.
  • We're approaching a moment of extreme danger. As his invasion falters, Putin appears to be seriously considering bringing his proxy state, Belarus into the war, and also the use of chemical weapons. Either of these are such a serious escalation that they push things to the point where direct NATO intervention becomes difficult to resist. Do I need to say where that might end?
  • For you, for me, for all of us, the only way out of this is the removal of Putin. There is no available happy outcome for the world that has Putin in it.
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lordsnooty
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

Posts: 585
Posted by: @fingal

@lordsnooty good work!

  • There is no available happy outcome for the world that has Putin in it.

Thank you  for your kind words. I know it was very good work.It is nice of you to confirm it.

For the time being you are stuck with Putin, and so you'll just have to suck  that up.I'm sorry to break it to you fingal, but nobody gets out of here alive. Not a single one of the 7.753 billion

Anyone watching the news will be horrified by the observed effects on the ground of the eastwards expansion of NATO and the EU. Russia (the greatest country on earth ) had  requested to join both groups and was twice rebuffed. There are now over two million starving penniless refugees trying to get to Dover, as if there were  presently too few poor people in England.

You  reaped exactly what you sowed, because you chose to act stupidly. So deep shame on you and gormless  ones  like you, many of these refugees are NAZIs or give succour to NAZIs. Putin is laughing at you , he's foisted his very worst people on England, you stupid mug.

wrt EU/ NATO ... I suspect our dumbass policy makers had not thought/realized what the  effect would be, of organizing exclusive clubs to be  hostile to Russia. You  were prodding the  Russian bear, and yet your policy makers acted  suddenly surprised when the  bear stood on his hind quarters and roared. How stupid do you  really pupport to be? Let me assure you it  was trivially easy to predict, and it is shocking if you  were   surprised.

In anycase, one way or the other, due in large part to ideas harebrained  US neocons such as the seriously Stupid John Bolton and the practically brain dead, Victoria Nuland , we threw away a once in a  millenium chance of bringing Russia in from the cold.

Sadly Le Carre is dead now, but in a speck of compensation, there is sure to be a  new genre of cold war 2 literature in the offling, not centred in Vienna, Berlin and  Moscow , but in Kiev, Moscow and Sebastopol. I hope you enjoy the new genre... you fool.

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Fingal
(@fingal)
Joined: 1 year ago

Posts: 258

@lordsnooty Well Snotski, I gave you a little encouragement because I don't want to depress you. But now look what's happened! You've slipped straight back into your usual script - and I can tell you, it's not an award winner. I have to explain to you that Putin can't join NATO and/or the EU because Russia isn't a democracy. This a precondition of membership - he really should have checked before becoming upset.

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lordsnooty
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

Posts: 585
Posted by: @fingal

@lordsnooty Well Snotski, I gave you a little encouragement because I don't want to depress you.

Our  side is winning since the NAZIS in Ukraine snatched defeat from the jaws of victory....

 

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lordsnooty
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

Posts: 585
Posted by: @fingal

@lordsnooty Russia isn't a democracy. 

Russia and her neighbours must presently exists in a state  of compromise, while present difficulties settle down.

You or I can make suggestions but please do not be offended, since Russia has seen what a mess  your 'west' has made of things, Russia already has 11% of the total world's landmass . So Russia May not soon respond to your  orders. Esp. Since, the nations behind NATO  are renowned empire builders, subjugators  or vile slave trade nations, such as England, Belgium or America.

Please let me  know the moment  you witness revolution,disorder,or mass discontent in Russia, which  seems  at present to be solidly behind Mr. Putin  I fear your visions of a left wing new world may remain unfulfilled while Russia resolves the second cold war forced on it by the vile racist nations of NATO.

 

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Fingal
(@fingal)
Joined: 1 year ago

Posts: 258

@lordsnooty Like I said - not a democracy.

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1984
 1984
(@1984)
Joined: 1 year ago

Posts: 41

@fingal Is the UK a democracy ? Australia? The USA?

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Stop believing start thinking
(@stop-believing-start-thinking)
Joined: 6 months ago

Posts: 202

@fingal 

Had Lavrov admitted to an invasion, he would have been imprisoned for 15 years by his own side.

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Stop believing start thinking
Posts: 202
(@stop-believing-start-thinking)
Joined: 6 months ago

So why look at only one side?  Where is your balance?

What about Soviets in Afghanistan, Russia's atrocities including Syria, with chemical weapons. .. and not threatening the same in Ukraine.

 

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lordsnooty
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

Posts: 585
Posted by: @tree

So why look at only one side?  Where is your balance?

What about Soviets in Afghanistan,

That was a mistake. By the west's darling Mikhail Gorbachev. Yeltsin got rid of him. Another proxy war, but before Putin's time.

Syria

That operation worked brilliantly, it calmed Syria down, very quickly, and it remains calm.... the truth never came out about the British spy James Le Messurier who was orchestrating a campaign of terror using bogus rescue teams called the White Helmets.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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lordsnooty
(@lordsnooty)
Joined: 12 months ago

Posts: 585
Posted by: @tree

So why look at only one side?  Where is your balance?

 

 

Well on one side, you have a nation that comprises 11% of the earth's land and on the other side is a nation that is a small fraction of 1%, how could it not be one sided? Seriously?

 

 

 

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