27 March 2021  /  Updated 17 July 2021
Ivermectin
 
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Ivermectin

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thinksaboutit
(@thinksaboutit)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 677
Topic starter  

I've seen mention of ivermectin as a "game changer" for covid treatment on these forums.

Is there any substance to this?


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Splatt
(@splatt)
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 1618
 

Not yet.
Some pretty poor trials lacking in any useful robust techniques which are then amplified by fairly poor methodology meta-studies of those same trials.

There are some weak "suggestions" of some effects but noting solid.

It needs proper, robust clinical trials (such as REACT) to pull out any possible benefit.

That's not to say it doesn't do anything - its that there's nothing robust out there to suggest it DOES.


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thinksaboutit
(@thinksaboutit)
Joined: 7 months ago
Posts: 677
Topic starter  

So not a "game changer"


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Splatt
(@splatt)
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 1618
 

So not a "game changer"

We don't know.
It could be the best thing ever or the worst thing ever.
Without proper clinical trials we have literally no way of knowing.

Slightly surprised RECOVERY aren't looking at it.


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1984
 1984
(@1984)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 29
 

Is there any substance to this?

Yes
Failure to recocognise this drug is corporate manslaughter
We could stop lockdown tomorrow.

https://trialsitenews.com/tag/ivermectin/

https://covid19criticalcare.com/

dr been https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OY8QV7lnFFo (+ many others)


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Splatt
(@splatt)
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 1618
 

So where is the proper clinical trial data?

It costs £10 to register a domain and post cherry picked, unverified figures and a youtube link.
That doesn't make any of it true.

Without proper, randomised, controlled trials its absolutely impossible to say either way.


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1984
 1984
(@1984)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 29
 

All 3 sources i linked to discuss the evidence.

Your comment on $10 websites

by the way The DBPCT may be "gold standard " in a perfect world, but may sometimes (often) be of dubious quality in the real world - for many reasons, and its not the only source of valuable clinical evidence

If you disgree with the above statement then perhaps you should take a deep look at yourself and stop posting on here until you understand better


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Splatt
(@splatt)
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 1618
 

All 3 sources i linked to discuss the evidence.

Your comment on $10 websites

by the way The DBPCT may be "gold standard " in a perfect world, but may sometimes (often) be of dubious quality in the real world - for many reasons, and its not the only source of valuable clinical evidence

If you disgree with the above statement then perhaps you should take a deep look at yourself and stop posting on here until you understand better

Again nonsense. The data is all over the shop, no properly randomised or controlled trials, no standard phases of dosage. Its nothing but an anecdotal mess with no attempt at all to look at interactions with other diseases and medications.

Cherry picked nonsense a 12 year old would put into a school report and get a C grade.

It meets none of the criteria for any clinical trial anywhere on the planet.

Taking cherry picked data that has no useful controls, no useful variable separation, no randomisation, based almost entirely on anecdotal snippets where most things aren't even testing or measuring the same thing, no attempt to normalise groups and registering a domain to publish you're pre-conceived output isn't science. Its dangerous.

And yes i do understand it better. Clinical trials used to be roughly the end point of my previous career choice.

We literally have no idea if it helps or if it makes things worse or if it does either in what groups in what stage of the disease. None at all.

People would be better spending their time designing and implementing an actual trial meeting first world standards and then getting it peer reviewed and published than self-user hosting a google website and registering a domain.


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marty48ls
(@marty48ls)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 2
 

As far as I can understand some trials are underway one from the university of Liverpool sponsored by the WHO. Also in Oxford there is a clinical trial where I believe that the results are very encouraging. There are however quite a few studies from developing countries with exceptional results- are we simply too arrogant to believe that others can also carry out scientific studies without being financed and biased by big pharmaceutical companies.
I also feel that far too little is reported on what the individual can do for himself especially regarding Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Zinc which are known to bolster the immune system


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Splatt
(@splatt)
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 1618
 

There are however quite a few studies from developing countries with exceptional results- are we simply too arrogant to believe that others can also carry out scientific studies without being financed and biased by big pharmaceutical companies.

No there aren't. Those "studies" dont meet the basic criteria FOR a study. The data produced has ridiculously wide CIs and impossible to teach out the variables needed.
Nothing to do with where they're from - they just fail to meet any internationally accepted academic standard for reliable data and consistency.
I also feel that far too little is reported on what the individual can do for himself especially regarding Vitamin D, Vitamin C and Zinc which are known to bolster the immune system

Vit D has been studied a lot. Vit C has been shown to do nothing.

Vitamins will help people if they're vitamin deficient. D aside, most people are not deficient in the modern world.


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rachel.c
(@rachel-chandler)
Joined: 11 months ago
Posts: 132
 

I won't get into fruitless debate over the evidence. Experienced doctors in many countries know that EARLY treatment with Ivermectin, HCQ/zinc, or high dose Vit C can help keep the vulnerable out of hospital. Problem is no one wants to listen eg watch interview with Craig Kelly referenced in today's LS
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5O2UYbTWs&feature=youtu.be


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1984
 1984
(@1984)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 29
 

Again nonsense. The data is all over the shop, no properly randomised or controlled trials, no standard phases of dosage. Its nothing but an anecdotal mess with no attempt at all to look at interactions with other diseases and medications.

The FLCCC protocols are quite clear.
Trial Site News and Dr Been (and many others) have analysed the studies in some detail

You continue to throw out Inflammatory insults and generalised dismissals without actually addressing the evidence.

The recent Vit C / Zn trial results were disappointing but did not demonstrate Vit C did nothing - you are being disingenious or churlish to state that given your declared level of expertise

The evidence for Vit D is compelling


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Splatt
(@splatt)
Joined: 9 months ago
Posts: 1618
 

The data has been analysed and found fallen short.

There are so many things wrong it'd be thrown out as junk by any reputable peer reviewer or journal.
No normalisation of groups, no blind or double blinding, no consistency in treatment regime. No consistency in measurement of effects.
No consistency or normalisation of control groups.

Its a hatchet job analysis built on top of very unreliable data.

This is why its not accepted anywhere at all and wont be until we get data of a robust enough quality to pass clinical trials

That IS addressing the evidence. The studies are so badly done they are not and cannot be accepted by any reputable peer review.

Which begs the question, if the data is supposed to be that good, why is it so hard for them to actually implement and pass a proper clinical trial protocol?

And no, it not "big pharma" nonsense.


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1984
 1984
(@1984)
Joined: 6 months ago
Posts: 29
 

More ivermectin + other news from Egypt and Japan etc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMhZi3aC5As


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marty48ls
(@marty48ls)
Joined: 5 months ago
Posts: 2
 

What I don't understand is why if Ivermectin may be a game changer why so few clinical studies have been undertaken to validate what I believe would change the treatment considerably. Dead ends are very important streets in life. Why is more time and money not put into looking for alternatives


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